Quote from: Age of Fable;543726There's also Hideouts & Hoodlums, which is based more closely on the 1974 version of D&D (via Swords & Wizardry).

Now, I consider myself a pretty big fan of OSR stuff, especially stuff that uses old school design principles over uncharted waters (e.g. Stars Without Number, Flying Swordsmen), but Hideouts & Hoodlums does come across as a pretty big square-peg-round-hole sort of game. There's even this contrived talk of "hideouts" as dungeons and "trophies" as loot.

I've never played it, and I firmly belive in "don't knock it until you've tried it", but I'm not sure this is what I'd want from a Golden Age supers RPG, OSR or not. Mystery Men definitely comes across as a better option.

Quote from: J Arcane;543723Is Marvel SAGA worth a damn or what?

SAGA is horrible.  Might just as well break out the Jenga tower:

QuoteThe SAGA System is a role-playing game system that uses "fate cards" to determine the effects of actions. The cards have numbers, suits, positive and negative states, and role-playing cues that guide the gamemaster in telling the story and administering the game. The system has been used in TSR, Inc.'s Dragonlance: Fifth Age game and the Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game, later published by TSR. Sue Cook was the brand manager for both of those game systems, and helped design the SAGA game rules.

In SAGA, a player holds a hand of fate cards that represent his health and the range of actions he can take. The maximum number of cards he can hold is determined by the number of quests he has completed. This replaces the experience points system of many other role-playing games. The cards replace dice-rolling, as well. When a player attempts an action, he plays a card from his hand. If the suit on the card matches the action type (swords for strength-related actions, for example) it is considered "Trump." Playing a trump card means that the player can draw another card from the top of the Fate Deck and add the number on it to his total for attempting the action. When a character takes damage, the player must discard the number of points of damage to be taken from his hand. When a player has no more cards in his hand, the character is unconscious.

Stick with Marvel Super Heroes or Advanced.  Or download 4C, it's virtually identical in play, except it has fewer power listings.  Even better, it's in the public domain, and includes the chart.

Quote from: The Butcher;543741Now, I consider myself a pretty big fan of OSR stuff, especially stuff that uses old school design principles over uncharted waters (e.g. Stars Without Number, Flying Swordsmen), but Hideouts & Hoodlums does come across as a pretty big square-peg-round-hole sort of game. There's even this contrived talk of "hideouts" as dungeons and "trophies" as loot.

I've never played it, and I firmly belive in "don't knock it until you've tried it", but I'm not sure this is what I'd want from a Golden Age supers RPG, OSR or not. Mystery Men definitely comes across as a better option.

Yeah, I prefer Mystery Men too. However, I haven't yet had the chance to actually play it...

Quote from: The Butcher;543741Now, I consider myself a pretty big fan of OSR stuff, especially stuff that uses old school design principles over uncharted waters (e.g. Stars Without Number, Flying Swordsmen), but Hideouts & Hoodlums does come across as a pretty big square-peg-round-hole sort of game. There's even this contrived talk of "hideouts" as dungeons and "trophies" as loot.

I've never played it, and I firmly belive in "don't knock it until you've tried it", but I'm not sure this is what I'd want from a Golden Age supers RPG, OSR or not. Mystery Men definitely comes across as a better option.

Now, hear me out, because I don't think I actually like Hideouts either, BUT, I think in a way, it does do a better job of emulating the Golden Age comics than a more traditional supers design.

It boils down to how they handled superpowers.  It's essentially about the difference between having permanent powers, and the "powers as spells" approach that Hideouts uses.  The latter fits better with how they tended to write Superman in those days, with him conveniently having new powers in every issue that just happen to solve the day's problem.

I don't like it, it's shitty writing, it feels lame and impermanent in play, and on the whole the game feels clunky as fuck, but it DOES I think fit better with the very specific era they're shooting for.  It's just not an era I'd ever want to play.

Quote from: StormBringer;543778SAGA is horrible.  Might just as well break out the Jenga tower:

I'm not entirely offended by the mechanics in concept, but the problem I had from a very quick skim was that 1) the specialized deck makes it impossible to run online, and 2) character generation seemed a bit cursory and weird.

QuoteStick with Marvel Super Heroes or Advanced.  Or download 4C, it's virtually identical in play, except it has fewer power listings.  Even better, it's in the public domain, and includes the chart.

The problem I seem to have with MSH is that, as you say, the power lists are shockingly limited.  Unless you pull in like a bajillion sourcebooks, there simple isn't enough of the style of power on offer to make it interesting.  It just doesn't feel very complete unless you want to do a shitload of reading.

I think if I'm going to run something I need to either give Mystery Men another shot, or just pull out my trusty DC Heroes or M&M3.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe problem I seem to have with MSH is that, as you say, the power lists are shockingly limited.  Unless you pull in like a bajillion sourcebooks, there simple isn't enough of the style of power on offer to make it interesting.  It just doesn't feel very complete unless you want to do a shitload of reading.

.

1) In MSH, a player can create ANY power. You simply describe what the power does, check it with the Judge, and assign it a rank.

2) http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ultimate-powers-list.html

3) The Ultimate Powers Book (available for free download here) is the most comprehensive sourcebook on superpowers ever put out for any supers-based RPG system. Just don't use the random roll chargen.

Quote from: TristramEvans;5438511) In MSH, a player can create ANY power. You simply describe what the power does, check it with the Judge, and assign it a rank.

If I just wanted to make my own powers, I'd play a game like POWERGAME or M&M3.  

Quote2) http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ultimate-powers-list.html

3) The Ultimate Powers Book (available for free download here) is the most comprehensive sourcebook on superpowers ever put out for any supers-based RPG system. Just don't use the random roll chargen.

This does actually make for a clarification of something I'd had a mistaken impression about.  I have a chargen program for MSH, and I'd mistakenly assumed that those little letter-number codes on the powers were sourcebook references.  It looks like all the powers I was missing from Advanced are actually all in the Ultimate Powers book.  

That helps a bit, thanks.  Still not sure how well the chart-based resolution will work online though.

Quote from: J Arcane;543875That helps a bit, thanks.  Still not sure how well the chart-based resolution will work online though.

I will grant that might be somewhat tricky.  Record the raw d% roll, have the player give the result (Red, Yellow, Green), double check it on your own chart, and go from there.  Slightly more complicated than a to hit roll for AD&D online, but not by much, really.

Sorry about the Ultimate Powers thing, I thought you were familiar-ish with that.  Tristram cleared it up, though.  Like he mentioned, if there are any powers or power stunts not listed (and there probably aren't any), it's easy enough to describe them and assign a rank.

EDIT:  The character generation in Ultimate Powers isn't all that bad, just more complicated than the core books.  There is a fair chance you will end up with some power combinations that might be tricky to correlate, however.

Well, as I mentioned, I DO have a chargen program for MSH, so the complication of the tables isn't really a problem.  I definitely know what you mean though about some of the Ultimate Powers results being a bit TOO random.  

The nice thing about the way Heroes Unlimited did it's random generation is that it was clustered such that your results still made some kind of sense at the end.  It's really easy to wind up with an MSH character that's like "How the hell did that even happen?"

Quote from: J Arcane;543895Well, as I mentioned, I DO have a chargen program for MSH, so the complication of the tables isn't really a problem.  I definitely know what you mean though about some of the Ultimate Powers results being a bit TOO random.  

I think I just snagged that one downloading the stuff from the link Tristram provided.  Hopefully it runs in Wine well enough.

QuoteThe nice thing about the way Heroes Unlimited did it's random generation is that it was clustered such that your results still made some kind of sense at the end.  It's really easy to wind up with an MSH character that's like "How the hell did that even happen?"

I had a guy whose origin was 'magical talisman' or something like that, and his powers were cold generation, super strength and armour, as I recall.  I was struggling to figure out who would magick up a talisman with that array of powers.  Still, he was pretty fun to play.

Quote from: StormBringer;543901I think I just snagged that one downloading the stuff from the link Tristram provided.  Hopefully it runs in Wine well enough.

There are two out there that I know of, Kyce's .8 version, and Zan's 1.2.  I like the latter much better, as the interface is a lot cleaner and more sensible, though it took some googling to find the Windows version.  

Here's the link: http://gamingnerdsrus.co/forum/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=466

QuoteI had a guy whose origin was 'magical talisman' or something like that, and his powers were cold generation, super strength and armour, as I recall.  I was struggling to figure out who would magick up a talisman with that array of powers.  Still, he was pretty fun to play.

It was the strength of the Glacier!

Something to consider--part of the fun is coming up with ways the powers do tie together.

I would also like to point out that default random roll only has you determine the power categories, not the specific powers. You might get Body Alterations/Defensive and then choose Body Armor or Regeneration or whatever, to fit with the other categories you've rolled.

The chart system is pretty simple, and solid. Its been the supers game I stuck with for many years, UNTIL I decided to write my own. I still run MSH from time to time because many people are familiar with it.

I tend to avoid the UPB as its random roll system create crazy things that blow off the doors of reasonable power level play. (I had a PC that alone took out Nimrod the mutant hunting robot from the future--something teams of X-men had trouble with including the second Phoenix. Rachel Summers.)

On the other hand it can be used for idea generation as long as you stick (mostly) to the character generation in the core MSH books. (For attributes, and number of powers.)

Quote from: J Arcane;543906There are two out there that I know of, Kyce's .8 version, and Zan's 1.2.  I like the latter much better, as the interface is a lot cleaner and more sensible, though it took some googling to find the Windows version.  

Here's the link: http://gamingnerdsrus.co/forum/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=466

I downloaded that one for later, the version I found was 1.1.3, which isn't too bad, so the 1.2 should be pretty cool.

QuoteIt was the strength of the Glacier!

Here is the character I got from Zan's generator:

QuoteHero Name:  
Given Name:  
(Abnormal Chemistry)
 
Fighting: Incredible (40)
Agility: Feeble (2)
Strength: Excellent (20)
Endurance: Good (10)
Reason: Excellent (20)
Intuition: Remarkable (30)
Psyche: Typical (6)
 
Health: 72
Karma: 56
Resources: Feeble (0)
Popularity: Good (6)
 
Age: 16
Gender: Female
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 190 lbs.
Skin Color: Black
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Green
 
POWERS:
I1: Animate Image (Poor)
L19: Spirit Storage (Good)
P1: Armor Skin (Excellent)
I3: Illusory Invisibility (Remarkable)
 
TALENTS:
Weapons Specialist*
Oriental Weapons
Martial Arts A
Animal Training*
 
CONTACTS:
Computers
Computers

Feeble Agility means she can barely take two consecutive steps without falling over, and I have no idea what kind of Abnormal Chemistry would allow for Animate Image, but that Incredible Fighting is something to reckon with.  

Hah! Try this one!

QuoteHero Name: Holo
Given Name: David Rachmann
(Cyborg: Exoskeleton)

Fighting: Good (10)
Agility: Good (10)
Strength: Good (10)
Endurance: Poor (4)
Reason: Excellent (20)
Intuition: Typical (6)
Psyche: Good (10)

Health: 34
Karma: 36
Resources: Poor (2)
Popularity: Good (6)

Age: 29
Gender: Male
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 160 lbs.
Skin Color: Black
Hair Color: Blonde
Eye Color: Red

POWERS:
DT17: Telescopic Vision (Excellent)
D10: Resist: Emotion (Incredible)
DT8: Hyper-Touch (Good)
I1: Animate Image (Incredible)

TALENTS:
Thrown Objects

CONTACTS:
Electronics
Hero Group

Something I'm noticing between the two is that Zan's generator doesn't have a box for generating weaknesses, and the base numbers it provides for the different ranks don't seem to line up with the ones in Ultimate Powers or in the MSHG/Kyce generator.