Quote from: artikid;933313I use DM fiat.

Fascist.

Quote from: artikid;933313I use DM fiat.

I'm Black Vulmea, and I approve of this message.


By the way, artikid, checked out your deviantart site - I like your work very much. Do you take commissions?

Prefer Roll-Under Stat. Easy to gauge 5% increment on a d20 die. Leaves open-ended modifiers (stack them Called Shots!) if I so need. But for the most part, since Skills were opening professional grade usage, there is no rolling unless the task actually requires professional level skill. Otherwise anyone can attempt, but they run the risk of their stats one day getting in the way.

Then we can move on to more fun things faster!

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;933113I don't have a single problem with what you said. In raw numbers I'd say I've had more fun with AD&D 2e than any other game system with Buffy coming in second place and Rolemaster 3rd.  I'd gladly play AD&D 2e again no problem.

That's just groovy, man! You're bringing on flashbacks. Good times, good times. :cool:

Quote from: estar;933329Now what the initial D&D did not get right was the presentation of the rules. The rulebooks were written by, and for, the circle of wargamers that Gygax associated with both locally and nationally. Gygax didn't states the many things that this group assumed. The foremost of which is that the rules were primarily an aide rather than a end all by all to run a D&D campaign.

I would even stipulate that that in particular isn't 'not getting something right.' That is exactly right for its' intended use, which was exclusively reaching a small group of miniatures wargamers looking for an expansion of the hobby, and in communication with each other (such that they could explain it to each other if a phrasing was ambiguous or unclear, etc.). It is only retro-active (including relatively soon afterwards, but still a huge cultural gulf if not a temporal one) attempts to use the document designed for that purpose by others does it start to fail. The real mistake/not-getting-right was that, once they realized that D&D was becoming a fad/business boom, not going and getting a professional technical writer. If the original D&D rules had been presented to the college kids who jumped onto the fad in the mid-late 70s in the way that B/X, BECMI, or even any of the modern OD&D retroclones do, the mythology of OD&D as inscrutable wouldn't exist.

And yet, for all I've heard ENDLESS sniveling about how bad OD&D is, by 1977 it had turned TSR into a nearly million-dollar company and the big dog in the gaming world.

Funny, that.

Maybe it's not as hard to understand as people whine.

No, that can't be it.  All those people only THOUGHT they were playing it and having fun.  Yeah, that's it.  Quick, let's start a "movement."  We could call it "THE SMELTER."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933368And yet, for all I've heard ENDLESS sniveling about how bad OD&D is, by 1977 it had turned TSR into a nearly million-dollar company and the big dog in the gaming world.

Funny, that.

Maybe it's not as hard to understand as people whine.

No, that can't be it.  All those people only THOUGHT they were playing it and having fun.  Yeah, that's it.  Quick, let's start a "movement."  We could call it "THE SMELTER."

Bad as in poorly organized and written, with missing parts?  Yes, certainly.  Bad as in not fun?  Bogus.  In fact it was so fun that it overcame all the short comings in organizational quality and completeness.  Weighing all the factors, OD&D was/is so damn fun that it succeeds in spite of its flaws.  And were they really flaws?  If you take OD&D with a large grain of DIY (which in my view is the only way to serve it IMHO) it was the best RPG ever written.

Of course, OD&D was the first mover, the bar setter and held a monopoly on RPGs for a time, that is, there was no other available to buy.

Quote from: estar;933329Vancian magic system was developed as an arbitrary choice by Gygax and refined from there. Arneson used a different system for his Blackmoor system that was based on finding reagents and components and crafting spells. Once crafted my impression is that you can then just use it whenever. While the reagents system was created by Arneson, this is consistent with Chainmail magic where Wizard could cast spells at will. The main limitation on a Chainmail Wizards was the number of spell he could maintain at once. A full Wizards could have 6 to 7 spells going at once. The original spells  (2nd edition Chainmail) were Phantasmal Force, Darkness, Wizard Light, Detection, Concealment, Conjurations of an Elemental, Moving Terrain, Protection from Evil. As well as at will Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

BTW, does any retroclone adopt this approach to the magic system? It does seem rather interesting:)!

The other thing I'd like to learn are Dave Arneson's rules for magic items and how knowing their history changes the effects;).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;933366I would even stipulate that that in particular isn't 'not getting something right.' That is exactly right for its' intended use, which was exclusively reaching a small group of miniatures wargamers looking for an expansion of the hobby, and in communication with each other (such that they could explain it to each other if a phrasing was ambiguous or unclear, etc.).

I think that splitting hairs especially in light of the rest of your post. And even among Gygax's community there was confusion over aspect of the rules. And I will restate that while I am bringing up issues with the original core books, they were just that good in that their core mechanics and core ideas has lasted to this day.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;933366It is only retro-active (including relatively soon afterwards, but still a huge cultural gulf if not a temporal one) attempts to use the document designed for that purpose by others does it start to fail. The real mistake/not-getting-right was that, once they realized that D&D was becoming a fad/business boom, not going and getting a professional technical writer. If the original D&D rules had been presented to the college kids who jumped onto the fad in the mid-late 70s in the way that B/X, BECMI, or even any of the modern OD&D retroclones do, the mythology of OD&D as inscrutable wouldn't exist.

I disagree. Why? Because it is my opinion that Gygax didn't put enough of the "zeitgest" of how things were done by him when running a RPG campaign and Greyhawk in particular. The things that Gronan's pithy remarks keep referring too. All a technical writer would have done is tightened up the game. I have long contended that RPGs are not about playing a game but experiencing a campaign that managed by a human referee. That the game is just one of the tools used to make the campaign happen.

We did get Holmes and B/X edition. Both of which in my opinion were tighter and more clear explanations of what OD&D was. But even they didn't focus enough on the idea that it all about running a good campaign not playing a game. With AD&D 1st we got corporate Gygax where he presented AD&D rules as the last word in how D&D is to be played. The tragedy is that it was an understandable response to the pressure they were under. Every account of the middle 70s always had as a centerpiece the incessant questions, and middle of the night phone calls. TSR was literally being spammed by thousand of gamers asking D&D questions. To deal with it, Gygax and his team starting with Tim Kask opted to tighten the rules.

People disagree with my assertion chalking it the AD&D development as result of greed, or if being charitable as a natural thing to do to keep revenue flowing into the company. Yes the fact TSR was a company and the popularity of D&D meant that they would followup on the original edition. But the shape of the followup, why AD&D was it way it was, is in my opinion, largely because of the rule spam problems Gygax and the company was experiencing.

There is a lot of good parts to AD&D, there was stuff that addressed the zeitgest of what Gygax was doing. But overall AD&D 1st was meant to present the one true way of playing D&D. And if something wasn't covered by god it will get a rule for it even if that rules hasn't been well tested or even tested at all. (Grappling is the biggest offender, followed by the initiative system.). But enough of AD&D kept the spirit of OD&D that it became a second classic for Gygax and TSR.

Quote from: Xanther;933382Bad as in poorly organized and written, with missing parts?  Yes, certainly.  Bad as in not fun?  Bogus.  In fact it was so fun that it overcame all the short comings in organizational quality and completeness.  Weighing all the factors, OD&D was/is so damn fun that it succeeds in spite of its flaws.  And were they really flaws?  If you take OD&D with a large grain of DIY (which in my view is the only way to serve it IMHO) it was the best RPG ever written.

Of course, OD&D was the first mover, the bar setter and held a monopoly on RPGs for a time, that is, there was no other available to buy.

Okay, fair enough.

Actually, it's odd; CHAINMAIL, DGUTS, and other games Gary wrote or helped write are nowhere near as disorganized as OD&D.  I often wonder if sometime in late summer of 1973 Don Kaye said "I'm tired of you screwing around, Gygax, we're publishing this damned thing."

Quote from: AsenRG;933424BTW, does any retroclone adopt this approach to the magic system? It does seem rather interesting:)!

Dragons at Dawn claims to be based off Arneson's notes and stuff. But the deal is that Dave Arneson didn't really organize his stuff. He was a very smart and creative and most certainly the Father of Tabletop Roleplaying. But it took Gary Gygax organizational skills to take his ideas and turn them into Dungeons & Dragons. And from the various accounts D&D reflects more of what happened with Greyhawk than Blackmoor. Gygax used Arneson's ideas, and adapted them for his own purposes. So the reagent system was dropped in favor of Vancian magic. But we still have craftable scrolls and potions.

Gronan can relate first hand the differences between Arneson and Gygax.

Quote from: AsenRG;933424The other thing I'd like to learn are Dave Arneson's rules for magic items and how knowing their history changes the effects;).

First Fantasy Campaign by Judges Guild has the rules for magic swords. For the rest it the same problem I mention above. First Fantasy Campaign is pretty much Dave's raw notes formatted for publication by Judges Guild. Supplement 2 Blackmoor in contrast had some thing by Dave Arneson in there buunder Tim Kask's supervision other material was added and it was written to read more like the Greyhawk rules and the core books.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933431Okay, fair enough.

Actually, it's odd; CHAINMAIL, DGUTS, and other games Gary wrote or helped write are nowhere near as disorganized as OD&D.  I often wonder if sometime in late summer of 1973 Don Kaye said "I'm tired of you screwing around, Gygax, we're publishing this damned thing."

We probably never know but it is a very human thing to do and has happened in other places in similar situations.

It why I don't buy the corporate greed mantra that people want to hang around Gygax's neck when it comes to why AD&D and rest of the product line was developed. It too pat and simplistic.

People forget "D&D tournaments," run at wargame conventions like wargame tournements, with prizes.

Origins in 1976 -- 250 people in the D&D tournament.  You can't do that with one judge.  At that point, "make up some shit you think will be fun" falls to the ground, especially with prizes with a significant money value.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933438People forget "D&D tournaments," run at wargame conventions like wargame tournements, with prizes.

Origins in 1976 -- 250 people in the D&D tournament.  You can't do that with one judge.  At that point, "make up some shit you think will be fun" falls to the ground, especially with prizes with a significant money value.

Yup, a lot of how D&D is played nowadays is still influenced by those D&D tournaments that have been dead and gone for decades. The most important thing you can do to make a tournament fair is to make the judges interchangable but that's one of the worst things that you can do to a private RPG game.

Quote from: Daztur;933439Yup, a lot of how D&D is played nowadays is still influenced by those D&D tournaments that have been dead and gone for decades. The most important thing you can do to make a tournament fair is to make the judges interchangable but that's one of the worst things that you can do to a private RPG game.

Yeah.  And that was a big part of what led to AD&D and Gary's "nailing it all down."  Not the only thing, no; but it was a strong force at the time.