Quote from: Benoist;624753And yeah, that does mean that some of these do suck, only ape what preceded them without really doing anything original in and of themselves, and the like. But if after settings like CSIO, Pavis, Night City and so many others you can still have a Ptolus in the 2000s, I'm confident you can still have original city settings that represent great added value for the actual game table. I have no doubt of that.

The way I view it is that we are detailing worlds here with all kinds of possibilities. I think we just scratch the surface even using the tropes that been beaten to death. All it takes a fresh perspective and an interesting idea to make something old seem fresh again.

Look at the Romance genre, soap operas, etc. You think they done all they can but they keep churning out new material every year. And every once awhile a gem seems pops up. For me this is illustrated by Downton Abbey. I usually go in for period drama but there is something compelling about watching that show.

Quote from: ggroy;624436Did 2E AD&D produce any outstanding modules?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;624515Night Below is highly lauded.

Quote from: Piestrio;624517Night below is amazing.

FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar is basically 2e's (and FR's) answer to T1 Village of Hommlet.  Niftly little village-and-dungeon package, with a nice mini gazetteer to the surrounding region rolled in to boot.

Of course, there's Undermountain (which is firmly in the "toolkit with a starter germ" school, requiring some DM investment to get the most out of it, so YMMV).

Also, I haven't run it myself, but Dragon Mountain gets a lot of attention.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;624736James Raggi is a self-aggrandizing circus clown.  What he meant when he said "The OSR is better than TSR" (and he said it years ago, but hey, Pundit, you've gotta drive forum traffic right?) was "I'm better than TSR" which was his attempt at an annual "The Beatles are bigger than Jesus Christ." moment.  Then later when his star began to fade (again) he hooked up with child rapefic author Geoffery Mckinney and published Carcosa (ooo controversiaaaaaal!) and, once that charge had spent itself, he published the orange turd from beyond (that's what's on the cover, take it up with him) where apparently microscopic silver surfers can actually prevent you from DMing ever again so long as you live if you play his module.  Yes, that's really in there.

So, no, the "R" isn't better than TSR - it never was, never is, and isn't close to it.  It's Raggi getting people looking at him by saying it.  Even if the actual question would merit discussion, there is no B2, G1-3, S1 through S4, WG4, A series, C1 or C2, D1-3, etc. etc. anywhere in the "R".

I never thought I'd agree with you on anything, but here I am. His best contribution to D&D was publishing Vornheim, which is one of only a handful of OSR products I can think of that matches the creativity of TSR's best campaign settings.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;624804Also, I haven't run it myself, but Dragon Mountain gets a lot of attention.

It reads much better than it plays. I wasn't directly involved, but my friends played it, and it is essentially the Tucker's kobolds encounter repeated 50 times in succession. Actually, in the late 2e period, there were multiple products being sold as "the good old dungeon crawl, just like you remember it", which all seemed to miss the point.

The first Undermountain set is good, though, as long as it is bought with the understanding that it is a toolkit and not a full-blown, ready-made megadungeon. I got a lot out of it as both GM and player. The sequels are better off avoided.

Quote from: Melan;624806It reads much better than it plays. I wasn't directly involved, but my friends played it, and it is essentially the Tucker's kobolds encounter repeated 50 times in succession. Actually, in the late 2e period, there were multiple products being sold as "the good old dungeon crawl, just like you remember it", which all seemed to miss the point.

The first Undermountain set is good, though, as long as it is bought with the understanding that it is a toolkit and not a full-blown, ready-made megadungeon. I got a lot out of it as both GM and player. The sequels are better off avoided.

Again, if Dragon Mountain and Undermountain are the standard--I am not in that race at all.

I mean, Tuckers Kobolds are cool and all, but a multi-part megadungeon with pretty much nothing but warring clans of them is profoundly ill-conceived and Dragon Mountain is pretty much a bright glaring "Do The Opposite Of The Way This Works Always" sign.

Ditto Undermountain:

"
A DM perusing Ruins of Undermountain, comes across this message and eagerly leans forward:
"This is a complex encounter; the DM must be totally familiar with everything in this room before the PCs begin exploring the area."
What have we here? Sounds cuh-Rayzeee...Oh: A vampire with a lot of spells, and some other undead helping him. And pillars that trap you if you touch them. And some pits. What's in the pits? Zombies.

And in case you're wondering: the pillars don't work on the undead, so that's a layer of possible complexity (pointlessly) removed. Is there any self-respecting D&D-playing 12-year old anywhere who couldn't have thought of that on their own? Does that not sound exactly how Chad Blerkenwald killed your dwarf fighter in 8th grade?

Next room: a necrophidius in a partially magic-proof room. Next Medusas: 3 of them. You paid money for this. Couldn't they have just had a line in the Monster Manual: "Medusae occasionally appear in rooms".
"

Are those fun encounters? HELLS YEAH.

Is that a standard of creativity I couldn't see Shear or Scrap or James or Joey or Natalie or Matt Finch meeting if they sat down and wrote some rooms? Hells no.

Quote from: Zak S;624813Next Medusas: 3 of them. You paid money for this. Couldn't they have just had a line in the Monster Manual: "Medusae occasionally appear in rooms".

:rotfl:

Luckily, I never did pay money for this.

Quote from: Zak S;624813Ditto Undermountain:

"
A DM perusing Ruins of Undermountain, comes across this message and eagerly leans forward:
"This is a complex encounter; the DM must be totally familiar with everything in this room before the PCs begin exploring the area."
What have we here? Sounds cuh-Rayzeee...Oh: A vampire with a lot of spells, and some other undead helping him. And pillars that trap you if you touch them. And some pits. What's in the pits? Zombies.

And in case you're wondering: the pillars don't work on the undead, so that's a layer of possible complexity (pointlessly) removed. Is there any self-respecting D&D-playing 12-year old anywhere who couldn't have thought of that on their own? Does that not sound exactly how Chad Blerkenwald killed your dwarf fighter in 8th grade?

Next room: a necrophidius in a partially magic-proof room. Next Medusas: 3 of them. You paid money for this. Couldn't they have just had a line in the Monster Manual: "Medusae occasionally appear in rooms".
"

Are those fun encounters? HELLS YEAH.

Is that a standard of creativity I couldn't see Shear or Scrap or James or Joey or Natalie or Matt Finch meeting if they sat down and wrote some rooms? Hells no.

That's kind of where I see Undermountain's niche - it's a big outline with a small germ of creativity, and it's up to the DM to brew that germ into a full batch.  Given when it came out (an era when dungeons were considered gauche and passe, never mind huge ones), it's a worthwhile exercise.

I've noticed a trend - most of Ed's best stuff is a framework, and a bunch of tidbits that boil down to, "Here's how I did it when I did it.  You have fun."  Just a glimpse of his DM style (largely improvisational, with a real tendency to "give big, take away big", and lots of NPCs), with the caveat that you can do whatever the hell you want.  Some people need that advice, some don't.  *shrug*

Quote from: Zak S;624813Are those fun encounters? HELLS YEAH.

Is that a standard of creativity I couldn't see Shear or Scrap or James or Joey or Natalie or Matt Finch meeting if they sat down and wrote some rooms? Hells no.

Though I agree with you on the idea that original encounters are naturally more "interesting" to deal with, I think that these are somewhat overrated. What might be thought of today on some forum or G+ discussion as "boring" is actually an integral part of the shared experience the game provides, and its effectiveness in game design shouldn't be underestimated.

What I mean is that this encounter with kobolds in the dungeon, or that attack of the orcs on the village, are part of that thing that makes you nod as you play the game and think "alright, I am playing Dungeons & Dragons right now!"

Likewise, "boring" encounters just mean that you have a chance to actually play the game in a neutral setting environment, and that too can be a lot of fun if it's not repeated over and over again (assuming the DM and players aren't playing out of their way to not have fun with the combat).

So, certainly, the value of originality in setups, situations, environments and potential allies and enemies is obvious, but I do think that there's some intrinsic value to the basic, "normal" encounter setups as well, and it's easy to forget that. It depends what you are after in terms of game play when you design your dungeon. Sometimes traditional vanilla is what people really want out of the dungeon. Other times, they'll want a lot of weird situations, encounters with a lot of moving parts and the like. Most of the time, I believe, players and DMs will welcome a mix of the two.

Quote from: Benoist;624823Though I agree with you on the idea that original encounters are naturally more "interesting" to deal with, I think that these are somewhat overrated. What might be thought of today on some forum or G+ discussion as "boring" is actually an integral part of the shared experience the game provides, and its effectiveness in game design shouldn't be underestimated.

What I mean is that this encounter with kobolds in the dungeon, or that attack of the orcs on the village, are part of that thing that makes you nod as you play the game and think "alright, I am playing Dungeons & Dragons right now!"

I think Zak's point isn't that published products shouldn't include simple fight-y threats, but that devoting a lot of detail to simple fight-y threats (and making that the bulk of a product) is basically phoning it in.

Quote from: Zak S;624813Ditto Undermountain:
...
Is there any self-respecting D&D-playing 12-year old anywhere who couldn't have thought of that on their own? Does that not sound exactly how Chad Blerkenwald killed your dwarf fighter in 8th grade?

Perhaps. To be honest, my perspective on Undermountain is coloured by GMing it when I was in 8th grade, and filling much of the first level with my own encounters, including elaborate traps, rival NPC parties and new sub-levels. It could be nostalgia - after all, my most vivid memory of running it is when the PCs brought up a charmed bulette to the inn above the dungeon and all hell broke loose - but there is also the off chance Undermountain has something that encourages 8th graders to expand on the boxed set's contents, which would make it a good toolset.

Quote from: talysman;624829I think Zak's point isn't that published products shouldn't include simple fight-y threats, but that devoting a lot of detail to simple fight-y threats (and making that the bulk of a product) is basically phoning it in.

Depends on the kind of detail, I'd wager.

Quote from: talysman;624829I think Zak's point isn't that published products shouldn't include simple fight-y threats, but that devoting a lot of detail to simple fight-y threats (and making that the bulk of a product) is basically phoning it in.

That is exactly what I mean.

Those TSR modules are fun--they are not, however, a very high standard once you strip out stuff that's already in the MM and DMG.

"A kobold shows up" is a worthy encounter.

"A kobold shows up and it takes you 3 paragraphs of descriptions of cupboards to read that to your players and you paid money for it" was TSR standard.

Watch:

"120. Kitchen. This place is 20' x 30' OH MY GOD THAT'S ON THE MAP DO I NEED IT HERE TOO?...."Within the darkest recesses of the..." HOW ABOUT A SNAKE? "...fireplace dwells a giant poisonous snake. It is coiled and..."IT'LL ATTACK AND THERE'S SOME LAME TREASURE LYING AROUND "may strike by surprise (50% chance). It has not eaten for a long time, and is very hungry. It can strike to 8 foot range, half its length, and attacks any creature coming within that range. Near the ogre skeleton is a usable shortsword (its "dagger") and a leather sack containing 84 gp. These are hidden under a small pile of nondescript debris. The ten-foot-square rooms were used for crockery storage and food storage, respectively for the south and west areas. Their contents are broken and smashed; food- stuffs are spoiled."

Thanks, 240-word room description! It's hard to figure why anyone uses these dungeons: it takes more time to read and prepare them with a highlighter than it would take to make an equally involved dungeon on your own.
"

In terms of useful ideas per word used and per constant dollar paid I think the OSR is doing very well.

I've read all the TSR megadungeons all the way through and got about as many new ideas out of all of them put together as I did from Dungeon Alphabet by itself. That's sad as fuck.

Quote from: ggroy;624436Did 2E AD&D produce any outstanding modules?

The Night Below campaign was excellent - better than anything I've come across in the OSR.

Quote from: Will Graham;624693Most of your stuff Melan is not very original: ordinary maps with numbered lists of locations with monsters in them. Im not sure how you have ended up as a spokesman on this subject.

I can only assume you haven't read Zothay. It's as cool a sword and sorcery city as you'll find published anywhere.

Quote from: Zak S;624855"120. Kitchen. This place is 20' x 30' (...) Within the darkest recesses of the (...) fireplace dwells a giant poisonous snake. It is coiled and (...) may strike by surprise (50% chance). It has not eaten for a long time, and is very hungry. It can strike to 8 foot range, half its length, and attacks any creature coming within that range. Near the ogre skeleton is a usable shortsword (its "dagger") and a leather sack containing 84 gp. These are hidden under a small pile of nondescript debris. The ten-foot-square rooms were used for crockery storage and food storage, respectively for the south and west areas. Their contents are broken and smashed; food- stuffs are spoiled."

Rewrite this entry in your own style, please (without the bullshit commentary), so I can get an idea of what you are talking about.