Quote from: Sacrosanct;758565But I doubt you'll ever actually provide anything remotely like that.

Like what, 2 minutes of searching?  You don't use it, you just go to the mattresses over every minor perceived criticism.  You're the only real 5avior or whatever they're called.  Haffrung is an ally of opportunity because he has a chance to carry on his war against the grognards, Marleycat is piling on and me-tooing because that's what she does when there's no football, she's bored, poking Ben is involved and someone allows Pew-Pew for wizards.

Quote from: Haffrung;752616The fact the 5E release isn't catered to the online population of dogmatic grumblers is the most hopeful sign yet that they're aiming to retake the RPG market lead. Because when D&D is thriving, it's because it's market is built on a foundation of tens of thousands of casual gamers out there actually playing the game, not the hundreds of theorists, BNGs, and edition-warriors who complain about it endlessly online. Frankly, I'd be worried about the prospects of 5E if the OSR Taliban, denners, and RPGnet system-wonks were praising the roll-out.

Quote from: Haffrung;757120Holy shit, they're coming out of the woodwork. Did someone at the Knights and Knaves Alehouse call a jihad?

Of course you weren't playing the right way in '81. Haven't the OSR Taliban taught you anything? The right way to play D&D wasn't discovered until a bunch of grognards heard the Word on the internet in 2007.

As the person who coined the term, I'm happy to say it's people like you who keep it alive with your reactionary dogma, appeals to tradition, and born-again fervour.

Do you really have people at your table who feel entitled to a Bluff or Sense Motive roll? Or does the very idea that other people out there enjoy that stuff feel like a rejection of what you like?

So it was formed by a bunch of disaffected gamers who wanted to get back to the most harsh fundamentals of the earliest era of D&D as a reaction against the softness and indulgence of the modern gaming culture. Gee, that's nothing like the Taliban.

Who in this thread has said anything about exploration being an invalid playstyle? It's a fine playstyle. What people here are challenging is this notion that it's the 'true' way to play old-school D&D. It isn't. It's the way that a bunch of forum-wonks have seized on in the last 7-8 years, mainly as ascetic reaction against a modern gaming culture that they hate as corrupt and indulgent.

Our own community? Going over? Fuck man, this sounds like some kind of cult. I remember when being a D&D grognard meant reading about cool adventures on the Necromancer Games forums and getting jazzed up about the Wilderlands reprint. When did it become a fucking identity?

And there we have it. Learned to play after 1976? Under 16 when you started playing? Enjoy commercial production values? The OSR don't need you 'round, anyhow.

Quote from: Haffrung;755912There is no "Core D&D Experience". Arneson and Gygax approached the game differently right from the outset. When are the OSR Taliban going to recognize that the D&D hobby doesn't have a Koran?

Quote from: Haffrung;752343I'm pretty sure WotC care more about sales than what a bunch of geeks who represent a fraction of their customers say on the internet. If 4E was pulled early it's because it didn't meet sales targets. If it did meet those targets, they'd still be publishing 4E, regardless of how many geeks pissed and moaned about it on RPG forums.

And to be honest, I don't think 5E will be warmly embraced by the online D&D wonks, who tend towards the dogmatic and combative. It lacks the cutting-edge mechanics that please the system-wonks, and it won't be old-school enough to suit the OSR taliban (nothing is). But I do think it will be a commercial success. And I think it will demonstrate how out of step the RPG forum community is with the far larger, and far more casual and easy-going market of people who play the game and don't argue about it on the internet.

Quote from: Marleycat;757052But 0/1/2e NEVER had options EVAR! It's against the OSR Taliban credo doncha know?  Nobody played RAW before 3e before then it was DIY recipe of 0/1/2e plus houserules on top in the overwhelming majority.

And THAT is a major reason why I like 5e. It's trying to turn the clock back and be FantasyCraft for 1/2/3/4e. It's trying to be a configurable game not compatible per se. It's a huge distinction.

And that ladies and gents would be MY definition of the "full Dungeons and Dragons experience".

Quote from: Marleycat;700466Agreed but there must be a balance and it isn't that hard to achieve, seriously. I think Ben would be a great DM to play under but remember he is OSR Taliban so has to keep to a certain line regardless.

(When I do Dnd I use FantasyCraft which flat out doesn't allow these abuses, other than that; I run or play Mage the Awakening mostly) so this is largely a non-issue to me.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;758571OSR Taliban very strong. OSR Taliban fight the oppressors. OSR Taliban will rain fire on one major rpg system EACH WEEK until demands are met.

Greyhawk Greg!

Quote from: CRKrueger;758679Like what, 2 minutes of searching?  You don't use it, you just go to the mattresses over every minor perceived criticism.  You're the only real 5avior or whatever they're called.  Haffrung is an ally of opportunity because he has a chance to carry on his war against the grognards, Marleycat is piling on and me-tooing because that's what she does when there's no football, she's bored, poking Ben is involved and someone allows Pew-Pew for wizards.

You forgot to add Mistwell, with his statements of immutable truth that invariably prove to be wrong.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;758565No matter how many times you repeat this, it doesn't make it any more true.  I will, of course, completely retract this if you can show me one person who accused another of being OSR Taliban for just disagreeing with anything to do with 5e.

But I doubt you'll ever actually provide anything remotely like that.

This is MarleyCat's accusation (in the second post on this thread) that I am part of the OSR Taliban for the comments I made in this thread: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29829

Quote from: Marleycat;758405Keep up Pundit currently it's all about the rate of errata/technology. They're convinced it will be exactly like 4e.

I clearly don't fit into RPGPundit's definition of OSR Taliban as detailed here:

Quote from: RPGPundit;758402It does refer to that extremist wing of the OSR (fortunately now in a diminishing minority, but who a few years back seemed to be main movers of the OSR's ideas and 'gatekeepers' for it) who engage in "old school extremism", who only want to play the original editions or precise clones, who deride any mechanic created after a certain date (the date varies, and they get into contests of "who is more old school" by competing as to what cutoff date they use).

So, the only basis for MarleyCat's accusation seems to be that I am disagreeing with 5e.

There's an OSR Taliban? Do they have cool jackets? Jackets would make me join.

*calls in drone strike

Quote from: CRKrueger;758679Like what, 2 minutes of searching?  You don't use it, you just go to the mattresses over every minor perceived criticism.  You're the only real 5avior or whatever they're called.  Haffrung is an ally of opportunity because he has a chance to carry on his war against the grognards, Marleycat is piling on and me-tooing because that's what she does when there's no football, she's bored, poking Ben is involved and someone allows Pew-Pew for wizards.

yeah, none of that was people reacting to people saying "anything critical 5e", but people losing their shit over really stupid stuff, and saying things like "the starter set needs to die in fire" and "if you play with pregens, you're missing the purpose of the entire game."

most of those quotes were in response to Cadriel, who you are aware said things like using certain AD&D rules meant you weren't playing "old school".  He was saying things that quite literally defined him as Pundit describes in his OP

nice try though.  Too bad you fail.  Hell, all the people you are accusing of being "5aviors" have voiced criticism of 5e as well.  But in true nature of TBP culture, you seem to have taken the position that if one does not bitch about something with vehemence, then they must be fanbois.  Just the fact that you think you're being clever by using a term like "5avior" shows your maturity on the topic, and is the sort of behaviour we're talking about in the OP

Quote from: Skywalker;758682This is MarleyCat's accusation (in the second post on this thread) that I am part of the OSR Taliban for the comments I made in this thread: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29829



I clearly don't fit into RPGPundit's definition of OSR Taliban as detailed here:



So, the only basis for MarleyCat's accusation seems to be that I am disagreeing with 5e.

it wasn't just that you were disagreeing with 5e.  Go reread your own link again.  She said, more than once, that you had a fair point.  Then you went off the rails when you started basing your criticism of 5e not based on the actual game, but you just know it's a disaster because WotC, (rather than compare the basic set with similarly complex games) and it sucks because it's too much of a hassle and illegal to show your buddy your version of the free PDF if there's been some sort of update; any update, like they would be completely incompatible versions or something

Quote from: Sacrosanct;758690yeah, none of that was people reacting to people saying "anything critical 5e", but people losing their shit over really stupid stuff

I didn't see anybody 'losing their shit'... except for SOME of the folks promoting 5e. Pundit doesn't count because he's pretty much performance art.

Quoteand saying things like "the starter set needs to die in fire"

What I said was that I wanted the Basic and "the starter set can go die in a fire" not "needs"... and I meant that as pure hyperbole upon discovering that there's going to be different rules-lite rulebook and I could ignore the Starter altogether. Not that explaining this, yet again, will stop you from continuing to rant about it.

Quote"if you play with pregens, you're missing the purpose of the entire game."

Which was badly said but those of us giving him the benefit of a doubt knew what Jeff was talking about... not agreeing with that statement but agreeing with it's sentiment, that playing a character of your own creation is a central part of what many folks enjoy about RPGs (though not you or Marleycat, by your own admission).

Really, I think the '5aviors' are the ones flipping out... throwing out insult rants like Trenchriron's or repeatedly telling people to 'shut up' like Marleycat... and THAT, more than anything, is what's fueling this fire... because calmer folks, like Omega and Estar, are handling it all much better without being dicks.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;758691it wasn't just that you were disagreeing with 5e.  Go reread your own link again.  She said, more than once, that you had a fair point.  Then you went off the rails when you started basing your criticism of 5e not based on the actual game, but you just know it's a disaster because WotC, (rather than compare the basic set with similarly complex games) and it sucks because it's too much of a hassle and illegal to show your buddy your version of the free PDF if there's been some sort of update; any update, like they would be completely incompatible versions or something

Which has what to do with me being OSR Taliban as MarleyCat accused? Perhaps, you should reread over your link again:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;758565I will, of course, completely retract this if you can show me one person who accused another of being OSR Taliban for just disagreeing with anything to do with 5e.

I set it out as simply as possible for you. I assume (but without any real surprise) that this means that you are backing out of the retraction you promised?

Quote from: cranebump;758684There's an OSR Taliban? Do they have cool jackets? Jackets would make me join.

Yeah, but they're reversible polyester leisure suits with clashing neckerchiefs like Fred from Scooby-Doo.

Not everything from the 70s has stood up as well as RPGs.

Quote from: Simlasa;758693I didn't see anybody 'losing their shit'... except for SOME of the folks promoting 5e. Pundit doesn't count because he's pretty much performance art.
What I said was that I wanted the Basic and "the starter set can go die in a fire" not "needs"... and I meant that as pure hyperbole upon discovering that there's going to be different rules-lite rulebook and I could ignore the Starter altogether. Not that explaining this, yet again, will stop you from continuing to rant about it.
Which was badly said but those of us giving him the benefit of a doubt knew what Jeff was talking about... not agreeing with that statement but agreeing with it's sentiment, that playing a character of your own creation is a central part of what many folks enjoy about RPGs (though not you or Marleycat, by your own admission).

Really, I think the '5aviors' are the ones flipping out... throwing out insult rants like Trenchriron's or repeatedly telling people to 'shut up' like Marleycat... and THAT, more than anything, is what's fueling this fire... because calmer folks, like Omega and Estar, are handling it all much better without being dicks.

oh, so it's "you guys are losing your shit, and the guys who actually wrote out words flipping out?  I knew what they really meant so their words don't count.".

wow.  Where's a giant rolleyes when I need one

Quote from: cranebump;758684There's an OSR Taliban? Do they have cool jackets? Jackets would make me join.

"It's the beards"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;758698oh, so it's "you guys are losing your shit, and the guys who actually wrote out words flipping out?  I knew what they really meant so their words don't count.".

Nope, because even taken at face value, what Jeff said was not 'flipping out'... he wasn't castigating entire groups of people on here, telling them to 'fuck off' or 'shut up!'... it was just an (inaccurate) opinion about the Starter set... that could have been talked about rather then just attacking his character.
I know that some people just can't help themselves but add snark to everything... and that's happened on both sides. But on this subject I've tried hard to avoid insulting anyone personally... though I'm sure I've slipped here and there.

Quote from: cranebump;758684There's an OSR Taliban? Do they have cool jackets? Jackets would make me join.

The handshake is BAD ASS.