Quote from: Warthur;760266Well, to be fair in some settings clerics will be getting their spells from abstract concepts or through the sheer power of belief. ("Lothar, don't you get it? You didn't need the magic feather - the Cure Light Wounds was inside you all along!") But yeah, in a setting where the gods are actual people who have opinions on stuff they're going to be like "excuse me, I didn't realise I was the God of Welfare over here."

Unless you were like actually the God of Welfare of course

And how are the dozens of other god in a typical D&D world going to like the entire social and natural order being overturned by a revolution in agriculture?

The crux of the issue is applying modern values and outlooks to a fantasy world. The assumption of utilitarian and rational economic models of human organization. Vastly underestimating the role of tradition, taboo, and irational values in shaping the behavior of pre-modern societies. The designers of D&D were far better versed in history and mythology than a typical player today, for whom the D&D mileu is modern North America with swords and fireballs.

Unless the game world has undergone something like the Enlightenment, I assume the people have worldviews and outlooks much like the early medieval, but far more dangerous and passionate.

Quote from: Haffrung;760274And how are the dozens of other god in a typical D&D world going to like the entire social and natural order being overturned by a revolution in agriculture?

The crux of the issue is applying modern values and outlooks to a fantasy world. The assumption of utilitarian and rational economic models of human organization. Vastly underestimating the role of tradition, taboo, and irational values in shaping the behavior of pre-modern societies. The designers of D&D were far better versed in history and mythology than a typical player today, for whom the D&D mileu is modern North America with swords and fireballs.

Unless the game world has undergone something like the Enlightenment, I assume the people have worldviews and outlooks much like the early medieval, but far more dangerous and passionate.

well.... maybe its a monotheistic society, maybe the other gods are absent partners type gods, maybe the world is divided up into kingdoms each with a patron deity and their main role is to vie between each other for control and this becomes a defacto tactic for surrounding god kingdoms and spending time grubbing round for basic food wastes time and resources that could be used to declare Jihad.

I mean if Jesus was prepared to use his magical powers to make sure there was enough booze at a mate's wedding I am sure there are a plethora of deities willing to help the poor, heal the sick and spread a little sunshine.

And I don't reckon all preliterate people have world views anything like the early medieval european period at all. Look at pacific NW coast Amerindians and Potlatch or the rules of gift resiprosity in the Trobriand islands or the any other numerous examples we could site as being entirely not like Western Europe in 1320.

The point of my reply, folks isn't that there is a single "TRUTH" so how a world of D&D using 3e magic (or any edition magic). Only that it does not automatically implies a farmless setting, a setting without mines, or whatever logical side effect of the magic system exists.

My point is that plausible reasons can be easily constructed to explain why a D&D setting can have create food & water, and Wall of iron and yet be a medieval culture.

As people been pointing there not even a single set of plausible reason but multiple sets of reasons that can be used. Which one is the "TRUTH" is whatever set works best for your setting. Whatever set of reason leads to most interesting set of adventures for your group to experience.

And the point of even thinking about this to create more grist for the adventure mill.

Quote from: Warthur;760265Why would that affect your feelings about 5E one way or another? If 5E, when it comes out, turns out to be a game that you think is well-designed and which you'd enjoy playing, would you really spurn it because of sadfeels about Wizards' treatment of 4E?

That's my opinion as well.  It's no secret I'm no fan of 3e, and especially 4e.  But I enjoy 5e.  People need to stop thinking of WotC as some sort of hivemind single entity, where the exact same people designed 3e, 4e, and now 5e.

Things change, get over it.  I used to be a chevy guy through and through, and hated Ford.  But I bought my F150 in 2007 and it's the best vehicle I've ever owned.  It would be pretty stupid of me to punish Ford for the new F150 because the one they made in the 90s sucked ass.

Quote from: Fiasco;760233I think you'll find that Dmimmermount is what pissed off most people. He fucked up and then crawled off to G+ without ever admitting fault or apologizing to the poor stooges he defrauded.

Yes, thats exactly the thing I dont care about. Wish he'd keep doing Grognardia despite his embarrasment over it.

"The poor will be with us always." --Jesus.

Apparently he was holding out.

Grognardia was like most rock 'n roll bands' catalogues: Strong original material out of the gate but then devolving into stale, formulaic paint-by-numbers stuff.

Most of his later output was doing reviews of magazines most people never read and retrospectives of games he had never played.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;760260There you both go again, bringing up things outside of literal RAW that impact actual game play.  When will you both learn that the only thing that matters when making generalizations about game play are white room scenarios?

Needless pedantry, but it is RAW in TSR that clerical spells are the province of being in good standing and even still spells granted are dependent upon deity fiat. It is the rule, even without the maths next to it. Perhaps something changed in the travels to 3e?

Quote from: jibbajibba;760267From a wizard perspective since we have established that the entry requirements are minimal and since under D&D 1e rules every large settlement has a wizard that is willing to train lower level wizards in return for gold in line with 1e training and leveling rules we can assume that said wizard who is willing to train for money -
a) is willing to train wizards
b) is interested in money

Thus would said wizard possibly train a number of acolytes in magic basics and then teach them a utilitarian 1st level wizard spell like light, mending, unseen servant or enlarge/reduce and have them mass producing a load of shit in return for room and board. These could be orphans of reasonable intelligence that make the % roll to know a spell. They are not the "rare" folks that want to be adventurers but plenty of smart kids work in sweat shops rather than live on the street.

Doesn't that all seem remarkable viable in a setting with minimal to zero entry level requirements for wizardry.

Conversely, if you follow the logic of most modules, then active adventurers are fairly uncommon since it ALWAYS falls on the PCs to save the day.
XYZ level NPCs dont count as it seems a fair portion promptly retired and founded a town, city, or kingdom. So stop asking why the heck THEY didnt save the day! hmph!

:rolleyes:

Interestingly, ine one module I had it specifically mentioned a king hiring a wizard to help with reclaiming land in a swamp. Obstensibly there to cast Lower Water and Walls of Stone.

Someone at least thought of public works mages too.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760306Needless pedantry, but it is RAW in TSR that clerical spells are the province of being in good standing and even still spells granted are dependent upon deity fiat. It is the rule, even without the maths next to it. Perhaps something changed in the travels to 3e?

bad wording on my part.  I meant RAW in the sense of a mechanic, something that can be put into an equation

Quote from: Opaopajr;760306Needless pedantry

Pish posh! What forum pendantry could ever be needless?

Quote from: Opaopajr;760306Needless pedantry, but it is RAW in TSR that clerical spells are the province of being in good standing and even still spells granted are dependent upon deity fiat. It is the rule, even without the maths next to it. Perhaps something changed in the travels to 3e?

Same rules but I've rarely seen it enforced and more commonly outright ignored regardless of edition used.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760306Needless pedantry, but it is RAW in TSR that clerical spells are the province of being in good standing and even still spells granted are dependent upon deity fiat. It is the rule, even without the maths next to it. Perhaps something changed in the travels to 3e?

Amazing how a lot of these criticisms of old school play always seem to require ignoring key elements of the rules in order to manifest themselves?

The idea that if you go around slaughtering cats, the God of Cats might not answer your prayers or indeed may even decide to show his displeasure in other ways isn't exactly rocket science.  Bog standard fantasy settings run by modern westerners are the place where you'll find humans who never fear their gods and clerics are basically wizards in plate.  Greyhawk however, wasn't one of those, and for all the high-level hijinks, the original Realms wasn't either.

Quote from: Marleycat;760340Same rules but I've rarely seen it enforced and more commonly outright ignored regardless of edition used.

You're right which is exactly why it's an issue in my OD&D games.

In my OD&D, your cleric prays for his new spells and makes as WIS saving throw. If successful, your cleric is successful in getting the spells desired. On a natural 20, you may even get an additional 1st level spell favored by the god as a freebie.

If you fail the save, you still get spells, but now they are random off a list I have for each god in my campaign (I have 3 main gods for PCs). The spells are the god's favorites and reflect his domain.

If you botch the save, your prayers went wrong. Perhaps you mumbled, didn't show enough respect, forgot some bit of temple lore about today or whatever esle, but your god is peeved. This can manifest for anything to being denied your highest level spell to just knowing that your god is peeved and this day better not end without some kind of notable atonement.

And that's just the morning spells. I believe in a very Greek-god relationship with mortals for clerics, so its not unusual for clerics to get prophetic dreams or be faced with signs from their god that may divert them from their goals to please the god instead.