I am happy to admit I am probably rusty - I haven't run a BECMI/AD&D campaign since the 80s and 90s. Still, I am finding OSR (specifically OSE Advanced) spellcasters super-fragile coming from 5e.  They have low hit points; if they lose initiative, they are demolished. The usual solution, I am guessing, is a lot of defensive spells and mooks to soak up some of the initial attacks, but a "boss" type spellcaster seems mechanically unworkable using standard OSE rules.

Any advice on this, or does it boil down to the spellcaster needing to be pre-buffed and with mooks all the time?

The alternate solution I was toying with is using the concentration mechanic from 3e and 5e - if the spellcaster is hit, make an ability check (roll 1d20 below INT, or, more easily, make a spell-saving throw). Upon success, the spell is not interrupted.  But I'm not sure what long-term effects that would have on an OSR game. It also adds an extra step to combat, which starts to add time, so I am not 100% sold on this idea.

Thanks.

It's working as designed. 

I don't think any classed NPC alone is going to stack up well against a party of PCs as a boss fight under OSR rules. Action economy is king, so in order for a boss monster to work it needs to have multiple attacks and a massive health pool. If you want a wizard to challenge a party by himself, he's going to either need to be about 15 levels above them, or you're going to have to give him custom rules.

Dealing with casters in OSR games more generally: Yeah, they're glass cannons by design, and cannons with very limited ammunition at that. To maximize their combat potential they need not just meatshields, but also good magic items (wand of fireballs, ring of teleportation, etc.) and advantageous terrain. I played in a Hyperborea campaign where one of the tougher fights was against a wizard and a gang of skeletons in maze of narrow corridors. The guy kept hitting us with wand spells and ducking away around corners. The skeletons blocked the melee fighters from chasing him, and he kept moving out of line of sight of our archers. Super annoying fight, but it was the closest we got to a TPK in the entire campaign. Later in the campaign, my thief-wizard got wings of flying, a laser crossbow and a wand of fireballs, and essentially turned into a fragile A-10 Warthog.

On the subject of terrain, one thing I notice a lot of people get wrong when running OSR games is encounter distance. The game plays a lot better if the parties have a round or two to maneuver before they actually come into contact. If you never roll initiative until the belligerents are within one round's move of each other, that's naturally going to hurt magic users (and thieves and archers, but less so). This is an easy fix in overland encounters. In dungeons, I find you have to drop the number of encounters and let them sprawl over more of the dungeon. The problem is the "this room has this monster, and you fight it in the room" attitude. One encounter that sprawls over an entire dungeon level, with enemies retreating to ambush players, doubling back to harass them from behind, etc., is more memorable and challenging than a dozen "'there's a troll in this room" encounters. Goblin Slayer kind of made this a meme, but it's undoubtedly effective, and this kind of mobile warfare plays to the strengths of the thief and magic-user in a way that stand up fights in an enclosed space really don't.

Basically as Steve Mitchell said above, working as intended.

At higher levels a wizard is breaking rules all over the place, so it very much balances out, like an asymptote to the y-axis. How is usually dependent upon the spells learned along the way, the options are so varied. A common wizard battle start is Magic Missile (often by rods for speed factor) to see if they have Shield up or otherwise guarantee spell disruption, then it just gets uglier from there...

Typically it is element of surprise and going nova in that advantage, but you eventually run out of time, resources, spells, ablation, etc trying to do it all your lonesome. And to resist that you hire in the help, give them gear, lay low, use trickery, and run long term enchantments. Which explains the magic economy on all sides; even at high level having the alliance of other named level classes who can field many more people buys you time to protect yourself, harass competing others, and research. Having allied fighters and their entourage be able to use protection scrolls, heal potions, and weaponry you couldn't use makes a lot more sense in this milieu.

I'd sum up what the others explained as:  The wizard has to play it smart.  That means making full use of whatever allies, terrain, misdirection, magic items, etc. that can be managed.  This is true whether it is a PC wizard or a party foe.  What you can't do, usually, as a pre-WotC wizard is just line up and let the opponents have it.  The wizard may be able to get off an alpha strike that softens them up.  Occasionally, giving enough of a mismatch or bad luck on saving throws, the alpha strike may due the job or send the survivors running.  However, a smart wizard doesn't count on it.

Thanks all, this makes sense.  It's something I noticed in particular because I am converting a Pathfinder adventure path back to OSE Advanced and there is a lot of "wizard in the room" boss fight. And I am looking at it thinking - this isn't work.  I'll have to rework them a bit more.

That was a good callout on encounter distances. I have been ignoring these and will start using them. Hit and run also makes sense for a wizard who has had his tower invaded - no need to wait at the top of the tower for the showdown (which is how much of Pathfinder battles work out).  Interesting to see how much mechanics influences even basic stuff like running an NPC.

Quote from: solomani on February 11, 2024, 10:20:37 PM
Thanks all, this makes sense.  It's something I noticed in particular because I am converting a Pathfinder adventure path back to OSE Advanced and there is a lot of "wizard in the room" boss fight. And I am looking at it thinking - this isn't work.  I'll have to rework them a bit more.

That was a good callout on encounter distances. I have been ignoring these and will start using them. Hit and run also makes sense for a wizard who has had his tower invaded - no need to wait at the top of the tower for the showdown (which is how much of Pathfinder battles work out).  Interesting to see how much mechanics influences even basic stuff like running an NPC.

Happy if it helps!

Out of curiosity, which adventure path are you adapting? I ask because Pathfinder 1 was based on 3.5, and despite all the extra stuff bolted on top of it, 3.5 was still based on the structure of AD&D. Admittedly it's been like 15 years, but my memory of 3.5 is that a lot of the same principles applied to wizards, at least below around 10th level. I would think that even in Pathfinder, a lone wizard is going to get absolutely mulched by a competent party if trapped in a room with them.

Also if you end up finding that the gulf between Pathfinder and OSE is too much design-wise, and you still want to run the adventure path, Pathfinder for Savage Worlds is a decent alternative for a rules-lighter system to run the same adventures.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2024, 11:45:38 PM
Out of curiosity, which adventure path are you adapting? I ask because Pathfinder 1 was based on 3.5, and despite all the extra stuff bolted on top of it, 3.5 was still based on the structure of AD&D. Admittedly it's been like 15 years, but my memory of 3.5 is that a lot of the same principles applied to wizards, at least below around 10th level. I would think that even in Pathfinder, a lone wizard is going to get absolutely mulched by a competent party if trapped in a room with them.

Reign of Winter. The Baba Yaga adventure path.  You are right about 3e. However, a big difference is the "get hit, interrupted" rule, which isn't automatic in 3e (get a concentration check).  And the "meta" for 3e was pre-buff out the wazoo before a battle, but there are a lot more spells to buff within 3e than 1e.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2024, 11:45:38 PM
Also if you end up finding that the gulf between Pathfinder and OSE is too much design-wise, and you still want to run the adventure path, Pathfinder for Savage Worlds is a decent alternative for a rules-lighter system to run the same adventures.

No familiar with it, will check it out.  Thanks.

If you want to cheat a little.....

Start the PCs at 3rd Level, give them max HP for Level 1, and roll for the other 2 levels.  If you still believe the casters are getting clobbered too often; allow those 3rd Level PCs to team up with a 5th Level caster.

Gary Gygax wasn't running Level 1 old school PCs at his table, and he also wasn't running AD&D at home either.  He was running something closer to White Box OD&D, and starting PCs out at Level 3.

-Dress up as a baggage carrier, keep your wand hidden, cower a bit, nuke when its right

-Cast shield

Give the thieves a d8 hit die at levels 1 and 2. Give the magic-users a d8 hit die at level 1 and d6 at level 2. Explain it by saying these are the levels at which they are younger, healthier and rely more on their physique than the craft they're still learning.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 12, 2024, 04:28:49 PM
-Dress up as a baggage carrier, keep your wand hidden, cower a bit, nuke when its right

-Cast shield

This right here is what an intelligent person would do.  If he were utterly ruthless, he would wait at the camp with some guards and just collect the treasure at the end. Even more intelligent would be to wait in town and get other people to invest in equipping the expedition, then taking a "modest" cut...say 10-15%, for being a broker.  You could run multiple parties and send them to different dungeons.  Then sit safely in town as you collect your fees. 

Before you know it you'll be 9th level from all that xp for gold you are getting.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 12, 2024, 03:32:24 PM
If you want to cheat a little.....

Start the PCs at 3rd Level, give them max HP for Level 1, and roll for the other 2 levels.  If you still believe the casters are getting clobbered too often; allow those 3rd Level PCs to team up with a 5th Level caster.

Gary Gygax wasn't running Level 1 old school PCs at his table, and he also wasn't running AD&D at home either.  He was running something closer to White Box OD&D, and starting PCs out at Level 3.

Its not my PCs having an issue (we have one wizard who the rest of the party protects), its my NPC casters getting hosed

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2024, 11:45:38 PM
Also if you end up finding that the gulf between Pathfinder and OSE is too much design-wise, and you still want to run the adventure path, Pathfinder for Savage Worlds is a decent alternative for a rules-lighter system to run the same adventures.

I looked at the DriveThru entry for this. Am I right in saying it's a rules/mechanics/monster conversion you can use to convert an adventure path, or do they also convert adventure paths directly?  Best I can tell they only converted rise of the runelords and crimson throne directly.

The only advice I know for Basic D&D wizards is to carry a chainmail shirt in your pack and put it on when the magic is gone. 

You may suck as a swordsman, but not as bad as a dead wizard.