Okay, so I have seen some folks bare fangs when anyone mentions psionics, while others seem to get giddy over the subject. Still, inquiring minds want to know. My current project will include psionics as an option for any character with adequate attributes to support it, and there is a Psionicist character class. I'm largely leaning on the 2E rules set to base my work on, so I've been digging into the Complete Psionicist sourcebook for inspiration.
What is your opinion on psionics in a sci-fi setting, and what would you do differently with the psionicist rules as found in 2E?
As I understand it (having not played psionics in 1E or 2E), psionics ranged from generally effective to hilariously broken.
I did get the chance to play around with Pathfinder's conceptualization of psionics (which were just another form of magic, but had their own components and quirks, which was kind of neat).
I love psionics in fantasy, but I was only okay with how they were handled in AD&D 1e or 2e and the same with Palladium. I like how psionics worked in White Wolf's original Aeon Trinity, but even there, psionics are basically super powers.
I wrote an article about OSR psionics for Knockspell #6 back in 2011. Tenkar wrote a review:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955
My biggest concern was in any RPG with both Psionics and Magic, I want minimal, if any, overlap. I want them distinctly different at every turn if possible. My article offered a framework for DMs to personalize the system for their own campaign, depending on how common or rare they wanted psionics.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1128504As I understand it (having not played psionics in 1E or 2E), psionics ranged from generally effective to hilariously broken.
I did get the chance to play around with Pathfinder's conceptualization of psionics (which were just another form of magic, but had their own components and quirks, which was kind of neat).
We used Psionics sporadically back in the day in 1E and 2E. They were very similar in function to magic, and yes they did have some funky powers (Hear Light, I'm lookin at you!).
Quote from: Spinachcat;1128505I love psionics in fantasy, but I was only okay with how they were handled in AD&D 1e or 2e and the same with Palladium. I like how psionics worked in White Wolf's original Aeon Trinity, but even there, psionics are basically super powers.
I wrote an article about OSR psionics for Knockspell #6 back in 2011. Tenkar wrote a review:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955
My biggest concern was in any RPG with both Psionics and Magic, I want minimal, if any, overlap. I want them distinctly different at every turn if possible. My article offered a framework for DMs to personalize the system for their own campaign, depending on how common or rare they wanted psionics.
Thanks for that link! I hadn't seen Knockspell before. Looks like a good mag. Just downloaded it.
My idea for psionics in my write up is similar to the rules found in 2E; points to be spent for using each power, roll dice if necessary, bam power happens. I plan to tie the points into the character's Hit Dice/HP though as I feel that psychic abilities should be associated with their personal energy. You'll have a pool of points that can be recovered through rest and meditation, but if you are in the thick of the moment and are running low on reserves, you can tap into your physical health to finish the job. Kind of like the Stranger Things character, starts with a nose bleed but could end up putting you in a coma for a while if you push too far. Still churning this over in my mind...
I like the idea of Psionics in sci-fi settings, however I have mixed feelings about their portrayal in RPGs and D&D in particular.
First of all, I tend to view all mystical abilities as being essentially variations of the same thing, and would prefer a universal system for handling all mystical abilities, with some modifying component based on traditions and such, rather an a specialized system to handle each mystical tradition or mystical ability concept.
That being said, I HATE D&D magic system in general, and I don't really think that it works aesthetically for the notion of a "Psionicist" class or psionic framework of mystical abilities. But then again the various iterations of the Psionicist character class in different editions have been iffy at beast. 3e Psionic classes were too similar to wizards under another name, using a variation of D&D's spell level system (yuck!). And 2e Psionics had issues of their own, but I haven't really played 2e in decades (and didn't play Psionicists very much), so I don't remember all the issues that I had with the class/system.
However there were certain things about the 2e Pisonics system that I liked. One of them was treating Psionic abilities as a type of skill you needed to roll against your ability scores to use. I tend to like the idea of mystical abilities as skills rather than spells in general, and I kinda liked the way 2e Psionics handled that. The problem was (IIRC) that some of the powers were questionable, and contrary to what I've heard some say a lot of them were actually kind of weak and not comparable to other class abilities (specially wizard spells) in terms of power at all. Other powers were simply objectively more effective than the rest. And the whole thing with Psionic defenses (I forget what they were called) just gave way to a lot of redundant abilities that were simply superfluous, with some abilities (Tower of Iron Will, I think it was called) being orders of magnitude better than the rest, making the whole idea of having multiple Psionic defenses completely moot--you just needed Tower of Iron Will and that did all the work all by itself. I didn't even like the idea of having multiple separate defenses.
They also did a separate version of the system for 2e that changed things around a bit and turned psionic defenses as a type of AC and handled psionic attacks using a psionic version of THAC0, which was kinda interesting, but I don't recall very much, and don't remember playing more than once or twice. With a d20 style approach of handling everything with a d20+Modifier vs DC, I think you could mix those two systems to make something interesting, integrating psionic attacks and other powers under a universal roll mechanic.
Quote from: Jamfke;1128501What is your opinion on psionics in a sci-fi setting, and what would you do differently with the psionicist rules as found in 2E?
The Psionics in Stars Without Number are the best I've seen in OSR.
The original AD&D psionics were utterly fucking broken. On the one hand, you could get a low-level kineticist with Disintegrate, which was often pointed to as the psionics being completely overpowered, but overlooks the fact that every time a psion used a power, they had a 5% minimum chance of it backlashing horribly on them. So on top of Billy the Disintegrator possibly only having that one power and possibly only being able to use it once a day, it was inevitable that eventually Billy was gonna crit fail the roll and disintegrate himself. Most of the psionic powers were mediocre at best, vastly less powerful than anything a spellcaster could come up with, so playing a psion generally meant being borderline-useless. The best a person would likely accomplish is multiclassing a better class with a psion so they'd have a halfway-useful non-psionic thing to do.
Quote from: Valatar;1128525The original AD&D psionics were utterly fucking broken. On the one hand, you could get a low-level kineticist with Disintegrate, which was often pointed to as the psionics being completely overpowered, but overlooks the fact that every time a psion used a power, they had a 5% minimum chance of it backlashing horribly on them. So on top of Billy the Disintegrator possibly only having that one power and possibly only being able to use it once a day, it was inevitable that eventually Billy was gonna crit fail the roll and disintegrate himself. Most of the psionic powers were mediocre at best, vastly less powerful than anything a spellcaster could come up with, so playing a psion generally meant being borderline-useless. The best a person would likely accomplish is multiclassing a better class with a psion so they'd have a halfway-useful non-psionic thing to do.
Pretty much. The only thing I recall about 2e Psionics being truly (kinda) overpowered was Disintegrate. Everything is was underwhelming, and some of it (like I mentioned in my prior post) even redundant. A lot of the power costs sometimes seemed arbitrary or needlessly prohibitive as well, making potentially useful powers useless.
Yeah, Disintegrate's the only thing people remember, since it was basically the only big gun psions had, so if you wanted to be at all effective you'd have to beeline for it. 3rd edition psionics was a complete and immense improvement over AD&D's version. You couldn't run around at 3rd level trying to disintegrate things, but you wouldn't explode yourself either, and it had more consistently-useful powers across the board.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1128522The Psionics in Stars Without Number are the best I've seen in OSR.
It's absolutely worth a read. SWN has a free version online.
In actual play, psionic characters have felt "unique but weaker" compared to the other PCs. However, I've only played / run very low level SWN, so perhaps they become much more powerful at mid and higher levels.
Quote from: Jamfke;1128511Thanks for that link! I hadn't seen Knockspell before. Looks like a good mag. Just downloaded it.
Knockspell was my favorite OSR magazine (and not just because I wrote for each issue). Matt Finch was a good editor to work with (and I've been on both sides of the publishing fence). It's a shame Frog Gods didn't continue the magazine. I had a lot of fun with my random generator articles for them.
Fight On! was also a good OSR magazine worth a look.
Quote from: Jamfke;1128511My idea for psionics in my write up is similar to the rules found in 2E; points to be spent for using each power, roll dice if necessary, bam power happens. I plan to tie the points into the character's Hit Dice/HP though as I feel that psychic abilities should be associated with their personal energy.
In developing your system, check out how Palladium does psionics. It's similar to your approach, but their range of powers are different than 2e (with both cool entries and WTF entries too). You might also want to look at Mutant Future to see how they do OSR mental mutations.
But whatever you do with your system design, playtest it like a mofo. My article was based on a dozen playtests using the various variants and I learned the best one was...none of them. Each variant had its own effect on gameplay and player preference, and most importantly, including psionics in a fantasy setting has far reaching implications.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1128532It's absolutely worth a read. SWN has a free version online.
In actual play, psionic characters have felt "unique but weaker" compared to the other PCs. However, I've only played / run very low level SWN, so perhaps they become much more powerful at mid and higher levels.
They start to get very powerful around level 6 or so, when you get access to the higher level techniques of the various disciplines. They're still not quite as powerful as a D&D Wizard gets, but that's a matter of taste. When you can start reading peoples' minds and rewriting their memories on the fly... or orbital insertions wearing a space suit (telekinetic flight)... or becoming nigh-unkillable so long as whoever kills you doesn't clean up every drop of your blood... it gets a little nuts. Good clean fun.
But in terms of dealing damage, SWN psychics are not ideal choices, no.
I'm great with Psionics in fantasy or SF. Deryni, Jedi, Witch World, Darkover, Galactic Milieu, Slan, Patternist, it's all good. But the AD&D and 2E systems were really bad. They were totally unconnected to other game mechanics, unclear, confusing, and swung wildly between useless and overpowering with little ground in between. They kind of soured me on RPG psionics in general, so I'm not familiar with more current systems.
Quote from: Jamfke;1128501Okay, so I have seen some folks bare fangs when anyone mentions psionics, while others seem to get giddy over the subject. Still, inquiring minds want to know. My current project will include psionics as an option for any character with adequate attributes to support it, and there is a Psionicist character class. I'm largely leaning on the 2E rules set to base my work on, so I've been digging into the Complete Psionicist sourcebook for inspiration.
What is your opinion on psionics in a sci-fi setting, and what would you do differently with the psionicist rules as found in 2E?
My Psionics system that I use in my DCC and other Gonzo campaigns is extremely simple, and it's found in my RPGPundit Presents #26: Mutant Hordes of the Last Sun (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/238806/RPGPundit-Presents-26-Mutant-Hordes-of-the-Last-Sun)
I've always wanted to hack an OSR psionics system. I'd use a little bit of the system from Blackmoor, notably the idea that psioncs was a tradeoff, not just random free candy that makes you better than anyone else. As in Arneson's version, the trade offs would target your classes' strength -- fighters take a hit to hp or Str, not to something they don't care about like Int, so psionics makes characters different instead of better. Then adapt the matrix of matched offensive and defensive modes from 1e, but since they're effectively random create chains of consequences similar to Swashbuckler, integrate them into combat instead of being their own system that's over before the first sword is swung, borrow open and closed minds from 2e except make it more rational, ditch points because they're annoying to track... and that's a lot of work. There's a reason I haven't gotten past the initial brainstorming stage.
I don't dislike the idea of psionics in fantasy, but seems like we've yet to see it implemented well. Magic-users and clerics have so many spells that some functional overlap seems inevitable. I'm kinda fine with some overlap as long as there's a way to make the psionic version a little better in some way and a little worse in another so that any benefits and drawbacks are situational and not universal. Oh well!
Quote from: Valatar;1128529Yeah, Disintegrate's the only thing people remember, since it was basically the only big gun psions had, so if you wanted to be at all effective you'd have to beeline for it. 3rd edition psionics was a complete and immense improvement over AD&D's version. You couldn't run around at 3rd level trying to disintegrate things, but you wouldn't explode yourself either, and it had more consistently-useful powers across the board.
I'm actually not a fan of making Psionic powers work essentially just like wizard spell, which is more or less what they did in 3e, however, I do agree that (at least from what I read, since I never got around playing them) they were much more comparable to wizards and clerics in terms of usefulness and power. And that in many ways 3e psionics where an improvement above earlier editions, despite my misgivings about handling psionics essentially like spells.
My issue is that spells in general add to book keeping and system bloat, often dealing with hundreds of variations of what's essentially a fireball, mind domination, etc., so I don't like them for any class personally. But when it comes to psionics specifically, the entire notion of psionic abilities to me tends evoke the idea of consciously and actively pushing mind over matter or your will against someone else, more as a type of ongoing and malleable mystical activity, akin to a skill, rather than the formulaic and prescriptive "set it and forget it" nature of a spell. So I specially don't like spell-like psionic powers.
I think introducing psionics and other traditions requires rethinking the magic system from the ground up.
Rather than arbitrarily dividing effects between traditions, traditions should be defined by their method of casting (and other limitations) rather than what spells they cast. Spell specialization would be a separate selection.
Spheres of Power has an OGL casting tradition mechanic if you want ideas: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions
Ignoring all other posts, check out Fantasy Games Unlimited's Psi World.
You do a playable OSR version of that, it could be marginally lucrative.
Or at least popular.
Quote from: Theory of Games;1128741Ignoring all other posts, check out Fantasy Games Unlimited's Psi World.
Who owns
Psi World now?
I loved that game back in the day. If I saw FGU's name on a game, I bought it. It was quite cool how the core book offered you various options for campaign types. We played both a "normals hunting lunatic psions" campaign and an "psions on the run, doing A-Team good deeds" campaign. Much fun.
I don't know if PSI WORLD 2e would be lucrative, but if done well, it would find a new audience.
I am completely the opposite. I think magic and Psionics are the same thing. And they missed the opportunity to make the sorcerer the medieval equivalent of a psionocist that didn't need components imho. Basically wizards learned how to manipulate Psionics with components because they don't have the potential to do it without components. Sorcerers have it naturally and don't need components. I never really understood your perspective which is quite common. I respect your tastes. They are just not for me. Play what u think is fun.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1128505I love psionics in fantasy, but I was only okay with how they were handled in AD&D 1e or 2e and the same with Palladium. I like how psionics worked in White Wolf's original Aeon Trinity, but even there, psionics are basically super powers.
I wrote an article about OSR psionics for Knockspell #6 back in 2011. Tenkar wrote a review:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955
My biggest concern was in any RPG with both Psionics and Magic, I want minimal, if any, overlap. I want them distinctly different at every turn if possible. My article offered a framework for DMs to personalize the system for their own campaign, depending on how common or rare they wanted psionics.
I am completely the opposite. I think magic and Psionics are the same thing. And they missed the opportunity to make the sorcerer the medieval equivalent of a psionocist that didn't need components imho. Basically wizards learned how to manipulate Psionics with components because they don't have the potential to do it without components. Sorcerers have it naturally and don't need components. I never really understood your perspective which is quite common. I respect your tastes. They are just not for me. Play what u think is fun.
Correction: I meant the Psi-Run game by FGU.
Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129006I am completely the opposite. I think magic and Psionics are the same thing.
I think they're answers to similar human needs, but they're expressed in vastly different ways, and come from completely different cultural contexts and backgrounds, and thus are fundamentally different. Attempting to syncretize the two is like the Romans claiming that Zeus is the same as Jupiter, or Lugh is really Mercury. It's an attempt to draw a parallel based on one or two significant similarities, and then using that to draw unwarranted conclusions about everything else. If we apply it to people, it's equivalent to saying two people both have red hair and like football, so we can look at one of them, and deduce that the other has the same job, haircut, and handwriting styles. That's clearly absurd when applied to people, and it's equally absurd when it's applied to gods, myths, and systems of supernatural powers.
Quote from: Theory of Games;1129445Correction: I meant the Psi-Run game by FGU.
Never heard of Psi-Run.
FGU's page
https://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/fgu/psi-world/
Psi-Run RPG...never heard of it before. Is this what you meant?
http://nightskygames.com/welcome/game/PsiRun
Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129006IAnd they missed the opportunity to make the sorcerer the medieval equivalent of a psionocist that didn't need components imho. Basically wizards learned how to manipulate Psionics with components because they don't have the potential to do it without components. Sorcerers have it naturally and don't need components.
Tunnels & Trolls has only one magic list (no arcane/divine split) and wizards are using psionics to cast spells.
Your division of Wizard vs. Sorcerer is a good idea IF the game really holds the Wizard to using components. And the only way to do that is make Wizards more powerful because they have to rely on components. Otherwise, players would prefer the PC with less expenditures and bookkeeping.
Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129006I respect your tastes.
My tastes are the pinnacle of taste! :)
The main reason I want psionics notably separate from arcane and divine magic is I want all three to exist without crossover because I really like the niche protection in class based games. I want the players to feel the distinction of these energies in play and how they affect the setting. Each is alien to the other, thus reinforcing their uniqueness.
BTW, I've been writing a Gamma World clone in a fantasy setting for many years through many iterations. All "magic" is actually mutations, but how you manifest them is meaningful in the setting. AKA, mutant wizards, mind mutants and mutant priests all can have the same mutations, but each is viewed differently in the setting and how they express their mutations can be somewhat different.
Correction: I meant Psi-World!
I'd buy this remake.