Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: Slambo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:42 PMIm pretty sure the whole OSR thing started with OSRIC which is 1e so i dont get why you think it shouldnt be included.

I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

Okay nvm me then i get where you're coming from now. I didnt even know people got pissy about 0e. I generally say pre-WoTC myself and tbh im not really that deep into OSR circles outside this site and the fact i like to play a lot of those games. I even like 2e. Maybe i just never encountered people getting bent out of shape about it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: Slambo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:42 PMIm pretty sure the whole OSR thing started with OSRIC which is 1e so i dont get why you think it shouldnt be included.

I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

So you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning, and when other people get confused because you're trying to change the basic ground rules of a conversation, you accuse them of being "pissy".

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 PMSo you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning

This is more examples of this sort of shit. In no WAY have I seen everybody united in what Oldschool or 'classic' D&D is. No way is it well established. Its well established to mini-cliques within the clique and then they are bamboozled when somebody else doesn't guess what they had in mind. But other people making labels is just evil.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 08:40:00 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 PMSo you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning

This is more examples of this sort of shit. In no WAY have I seen everybody united in what Oldschool or 'classic' D&D is. No way is it well established. Its well established to mini-cliques within the clique and then they are bamboozled when somebody else doesn't guess what they had in mind. But other people making labels is just evil.

Point to one place in your friend-in-shitposting was whining about a general term like old school or classic D&D. Because only one of those terms was used, and it wasn't the thing being whined about, it was the definition of the thing being whined about. The term being whined about was "OD&D", which has a specific meaning that's accepted by almost everyone, and, no, it's not "old school" D&D. The "O" stands for "original, and that's how everyone else uses it. Deliberately using OD&D like that and then pretending to be offended about is a complete dick move.

So yes, you're another example of this sort of shit. If you dislike the OSR so much you have to lie about it, why not just find a game or playstyle you do like and stop randomly make these group accusations against people who have done absolutely nothing to earn your ire except like something you don't?

Pat, you are wasting your time with the screaming dead sidhe ghost.  He's so convinced that 3E is Dagda's gift to gaming that he can't even being to appreciate anything D&D before it on its own terms.  You can't reason someone out of a position that they were never reasoned into to begin with. 

If someone doubts my statement, find any post on these boards that contradicts it.  I double-dog dare ya.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 27, 2022, 11:01:42 PMHe's so convinced that 3E is Dagda's gift to gaming

Except I don't, and I would say its generally sloppy and full of problems, and its design leads to a very crunch oriented mentality and its unplayable at higher levels as written because of feature bloat. It can't be that Im critical of every edition of D&D, each with their pros and cons (this includes 'Old School' D&D). Edit: My most hated edition is actually probably 5e. Its pros are only good for very shallow experiences, and its cons are everything else.
No its that Im a fanatic for the 'Wrong' edition, that can be the ONLY reason Im critical of the things you like.

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 09:32:59 PMIf you dislike the OSR so much you have to lie about it

And I have repeated multiple times: I like some of OSR. Im running a Stars Without Number campaign right now. And I have tried Godbound, and will try out WWN in the future.

And Im the liar.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 27, 2022, 04:57:56 PM
I thought we'd standardized on "classic D&D" for 0e, B/X, and BECMI/RC?

That's mostly a Dragonsfoot thing. Elsewhere, it can mean any older edition.

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: Slambo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:42 PMIm pretty sure the whole OSR thing started with OSRIC which is 1e so i dont get why you think it shouldnt be included.

I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

So you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning, and when other people get confused because you're trying to change the basic ground rules of a conversation, you accuse them of being "pissy".

Because you ARE being pissy. I went into great detail illustrating how a general term to refer to the whatever the fuck we're supposed to call "0e, B/X, BECMI, etc." or "those versions/editions of D&D that are neither AD&D or WotC era D&D" doesn't exist. How BOTH "OD&D" AND "0e" apparently mean "Original D&D", which in turn refers to the first printing specifically, not B/X, BECIMI, Rules Cyclopedia, etc. Which means I can't use EITHER of them. And I can't use plain "D&D" either, cuz WotC got rid of the "Advanced/AD&D" label, so now ALL D&D is just "D&D".

And you STILL haven't corrected me or provided a fucking term you'd find suitable for me to use. Instead you come in here to whine at me, yet again. Without acknowledging any of that shit or CORRECTING me if I'm wrong somehow.

100% ALL that you're doing is getting pissy at me, and you STILL haven't told me what term you want me to use!!! HAHAHA!

The only one who has attempted to do such a thing so far has been Cat the Bounty Smuggler, but no one has yet to confirmed whether "Classic D&D" is the "correct" or acceptable term, either, or whether a such a thing even exists in the entirety of the OSR. You're just wasting time getting back at me instead of answering the fucking question or telling how I'm wrong or what I missed.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 11:24:15 PMAnd I have repeated multiple times: I like some of OSR. Im running a Stars Without Number campaign right now. And I have tried Godbound, and will try out WWN in the future.

I started skimming through the free version of WWN a couple days ago with an open mind and it looks pretty playable. Nice synthesis of modern mechanics and old school simplicity. Plenty of options and flexibility without the 3e+ bloat.

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 28, 2022, 04:55:12 AM

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: Slambo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:42 PMIm pretty sure the whole OSR thing started with OSRIC which is 1e so i dont get why you think it shouldnt be included.

I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

So you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning, and when other people get confused because you're trying to change the basic ground rules of a conversation, you accuse them of being "pissy".

Because you ARE being pissy. I went into great detail illustrating how a general term to refer to the whatever the fuck we're supposed to call "0e, B/X, BECMI, etc." or "those versions/editions of D&D that are neither AD&D or WotC era D&D" doesn't exist. How BOTH "OD&D" AND "0e" apparently mean "Original D&D", which in turn refers to the first printing specifically, not B/X, BECIMI, Rules Cyclopedia, etc. Which means I can't use EITHER of them. And I can't use plain "D&D" either, cuz WotC got rid of the "Advanced/AD&D" label, so now ALL D&D is just "D&D".

And you STILL haven't corrected me or provided a fucking term you'd find suitable for me to use. Instead you come in here to whine at me, yet again. Without acknowledging any of that shit or CORRECTING me if I'm wrong somehow.

100% ALL that you're doing is getting pissy at me, and you STILL haven't told me what term you want me to use!!! HAHAHA!

The only one who has attempted to do such a thing so far has been Cat the Bounty Smuggler, but no one has yet to confirmed whether "Classic D&D" is the "correct" or acceptable term, either, or whether a such a thing even exists in the entirety of the OSR. You're just wasting time getting back at me instead of answering the fucking question or telling how I'm wrong or what I missed.

Old or old school are all-encompassing terms, which can refer to anything up to roughly 2nd edition (there's some dispute about whether that edition is included, and a very few people argue it can include any out of print edition), as well as any modern stuff in the same spirit. OSR includes "renaissance" (or less commonly, "revival"), which inherently implies that it doesn't include the originals that inspired the renaissance or revival. Some people do use it more broadly as a synonym for old school, but that will cause some confusion and people will point out the inherent contradiction if you use it that way, so it's probably best to avoid.

OD&D means original D&D, or 0e. They're synonyms, and you made up the rest of the shit because nobody on the planet uses them to refer to specific printings. The printings are most commonly denoted by colors. White box gets a little confusing, because while it's used as a general term for the same edition, it's also technically incorrect because the first printing was a faux-wood grained brown box. LBBs (little brown booklets) is another way of saying the same thing (though the reprints are white). OCE is another slightly confusing term, because it was the name slapped on some very specific printings. None of them have ever included AD&D, and they also don't include Basic D&D (except maybe Holmes, but that's a very complex case, and rarely an issue).

Classic D&D is mostly a Dragonsfoot term, and there it means OD&D, as well as its Basic D&D descendants. Elsewhere, it's a much broader term, roughly synonymous to old school, except it probably doesn't include the newer stuff. So if you're using it in a specific way, it's probably useful to clarify. Basic D&D is the most common way to refer to the Holmes/BX/BECMI/RC/Classic/black box/etc lineage. None of which are "printings" of OD&D. That's just you not knowing what those editions include, or what "printing" means.

These are basic widely-accepted definitions, which you're refusing to use, and you've apparently developed a grudge against the people who pointed out you're confusing things by refusing to use commonly accepted definitions, and call them pissy. On top of that, you insist on jumping in threads like this and making them all about this pointless garbage grudge, and calling anyone who objects to your threadcrapping as pissy. Which if course makes you the uber-bitch of pissy whiners.

I think referring to the batch of games as 'early D&D' gets the job done. Classic can work as well.

You can call them all OD&D if you want, but you never going to stop having this conversation because there are people who play (and perhaps even more often study) the original edition. So when you lump in all early editions and then reference mechanics or aspects that were not there, such as initiative and race as class, you give them an excuse to pop an eyeball and pull on your short hairs.

On topic—for me LotFP does a great job capturing the simplicity of the early editions while mixing in (or creating) popular adaptations. The only con I have for it is audience dependent, and completely avoidable if you create your own campaigns and use the Art-free Rules version.

Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 07:53:34 AMOld or old school are all-encompassing terms, which can refer to anything up to roughly 2nd edition.

I have seen many a people reject AD&D+ as 'Old School' so just because you said it, doesn't make it clear/ common. He has his own vague term for a period thats vagely defined and so do you.

Circling back: Do I think the community at large is one of the worst in terms of lacking self awareness and arbitrary in definitions? Yes.

Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 07:53:34 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 28, 2022, 04:55:12 AM

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: Slambo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:42 PMIm pretty sure the whole OSR thing started with OSRIC which is 1e so i dont get why you think it shouldnt be included.

I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

So you insist on using a completely different definition for terms with a very clear and well established meaning, and when other people get confused because you're trying to change the basic ground rules of a conversation, you accuse them of being "pissy".

Because you ARE being pissy. I went into great detail illustrating how a general term to refer to the whatever the fuck we're supposed to call "0e, B/X, BECMI, etc." or "those versions/editions of D&D that are neither AD&D or WotC era D&D" doesn't exist. How BOTH "OD&D" AND "0e" apparently mean "Original D&D", which in turn refers to the first printing specifically, not B/X, BECIMI, Rules Cyclopedia, etc. Which means I can't use EITHER of them. And I can't use plain "D&D" either, cuz WotC got rid of the "Advanced/AD&D" label, so now ALL D&D is just "D&D".

And you STILL haven't corrected me or provided a fucking term you'd find suitable for me to use. Instead you come in here to whine at me, yet again. Without acknowledging any of that shit or CORRECTING me if I'm wrong somehow.

100% ALL that you're doing is getting pissy at me, and you STILL haven't told me what term you want me to use!!! HAHAHA!

The only one who has attempted to do such a thing so far has been Cat the Bounty Smuggler, but no one has yet to confirmed whether "Classic D&D" is the "correct" or acceptable term, either, or whether a such a thing even exists in the entirety of the OSR. You're just wasting time getting back at me instead of answering the fucking question or telling how I'm wrong or what I missed.

Old or old school are all-encompassing terms, which can refer to anything up to roughly 2nd edition (there's some dispute about whether that edition is included, and a very few people argue it can include any out of print edition), as well as any modern stuff in the same spirit. OSR includes "renaissance" (or less commonly, "revival"), which inherently implies that it doesn't include the originals that inspired the renaissance or revival. Some people do use it more broadly as a synonym for old school, but that will cause some confusion and people will point out the inherent contradiction if you use it that way, so it's probably best to avoid.

OD&D means original D&D, or 0e. They're synonyms, and you made up the rest of the shit because nobody on the planet uses them to refer to specific printings. The printings are most commonly denoted by colors. White box gets a little confusing, because while it's used as a general term for the same edition, it's also technically incorrect because the first printing was a faux-wood grained brown box. LBBs (little brown booklets) is another way of saying the same thing (though the reprints are white). OCE is another slightly confusing term, because it was the name slapped on some very specific printings. None of them have ever included AD&D, and they also don't include Basic D&D (except maybe Holmes, but that's a very complex case, and rarely an issue).

Classic D&D is mostly a Dragonsfoot term, and there it means OD&D, as well as its Basic D&D descendants. Elsewhere, it's a much broader term, roughly synonymous to old school, except it probably doesn't include the newer stuff. So if you're using it in a specific way, it's probably useful to clarify. Basic D&D is the most common way to refer to the Holmes/BX/BECMI/RC/Classic/black box/etc lineage. None of which are "printings" of OD&D. That's just you not knowing what those editions include, or what "printing" means.

These are basic widely-accepted definitions, which you're refusing to use, and you've apparently developed a grudge against the people who pointed out you're confusing things by refusing to use commonly accepted definitions, and call them pissy. On top of that, you insist on jumping in threads like this and making them all about this pointless garbage grudge, and calling anyone who objects to your threadcrapping as pissy. Which if course makes you the uber-bitch of pissy whiners.

Whatever, dude.

I love how you accuse me of making up shit (which I didn't, but OK*) even as you make up shit of your own with additional accusations, like claiming that I've been "refusing" to use terms when I've been like three posts now asking WTF those terms are. And you still can't give me a definitive answer, given that you just said that "Classic D&D", for example, is a term used in a specific forum that can mean different stuff elsewhere (so much for "widely-accepted"). Which basically means that if I use any of these terms I'm almost guaranteed to step on a pissy OSR landmine about not using one of their dozens of sacred terms to refer to "Classic/Basic/Whatever D&D" correctly. But somehow this has been me "refusing" to do shit.

*and no, failing to use a term like "printing" correctly is not "making shit up". That's an error at best, or you being pedantic (more likely) at worst.

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 27, 2022, 04:51:45 PM
I never said that it shouldn't be included. I said that I normally use the term "OD&D" to refer to older editions or "old school" D&D in general, and I also mentioned that when I do this I'm sometimes referring to pre- or "not" AD&D specifically (0e, B/X, BECMI, etc), but I sometimes use it to refer to AD&D 1e as well, because ALL of those game books are what the OSR draws from. But I can't refer to them as "OSR" cuz they're merely the inspiration for it, not "OSR" games per se. But if I use "OD&D" the OSR gets pissy, because apparently we can't use "Old" to refer to not-AD&D in general. If I use 0e the OSR also gets pissy, cuz apparently that also refers to the very first print specifically, so I can't just refer to them by number like I can with EVERY SINGLE OTHER EDITION of D&D from 1e. So WTF do I call them when referring to them "in general"--not a specific variant of what's essentially the same game--but that long line of variants of one game that the OSR draws inspiration from? And how do we refer to AD&D 1e when speaking about it as part of the entire catalog of D&D variants the OSR draws from?

While jargon they do have meaningful impact creatively resulting in product with different feels despite being related mechanically.

• OD&D 3 LBB
• OD&D 3 LBB + Supplements
• B/X D&D
• AD&D 1e

And there are subvariants such as BECMI versus B/X and AD&D 1e with Unearthed Arcana or not. With the Survival Guides or not. But the four above have been found in practice to have their own feel in actual play due to how the numbers and mechanics interplay with each other.  The difference is most obvious at the extremes with OD&D 3 LBB only versus AD&D 1e + Unearthed Arcana.

OD&D + Greyhawk supplement is the first version that most would recognize as classic D&D. OD&D 3 LBB only feels like it own thing.

OD&D + supplement versus B/X. B/X is more organized and straightforward but has less options along with race as class compared to OD&D + supplement.

OD&D + supplements  versus AD&D 1e, is that AD&D 1e feels more organized, more polished, with a bunch of new material all in one place. While OD&D + supplements feels like you can experiment more and add and subtract what you like.

It like chocolate ice cream. To somebody who likes vanilla, chocolate ice cream is chocolate ice cream. But in practice chocolate ice cream has many variants depending on the type of chocolate used to make the ice cream. Which means at times it is important to make a distinction.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 28, 2022, 10:00:07 AMCircling back: Do I think the community at large is one of the worst in terms of lacking self awareness and arbitrary in definitions? Yes.

Nah, this whole exchange didn't prove that at all. You're just making shit up.