Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 10:04:11 AMOK now this is turning into an appeal to a majority and snide remarks towards me.

No. It's neither.

I'm not claiming that a large number of people have a favorable opinion of something, therefore it is good. You claimed the basic system is unintuitive. And that is refuted by the fact that a large number of people actually have learned and understood the basic game--clearly so, by virtue of the fact that they are playing the game. That's an appeal to evidence. Appeal to a majority is not applicable because what I'm saying is not dependent upon the opinions of the majority.

Children being wrong vs being out of touch is a reference the Principal Skinner from the Simpsons. The reference widely known and understood in pop culture. And there is absolutely nothing snide about it. Even if you want to take it at face value, it's still not snide. It's a perfectly legitimate question that goes straight to the heart of the matter. You didn't simply say that *you* find the game unintuitive. You said that it was unintuitive for all (other than those who grew up with the game). Why should we assume as the default position that you get to speak for all those gamers? Why shouldn't we be able to question whether or not you're out of touch with these people?

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 08:01:30 AMLunamancer went out the way to quote the section where SB made a series of completely unfounded personal attacks against me, just to say they weren't like that (me). Now unlike you or SB, I'm pretty sure that Lunamancer didn't intend it that way. But it was still a shitty thing to do.

Go back to my post and compare it to post I was quoting. I quoted every single word of SB's post. I didn't omit any part. And I didn't go out of my way to quote any section of it. You are correct in that there was no intended offense. I stand 100% by my post, however. There was no shitty thing done, and I'm never going to agree with you on that.

Your reaction here at first gave me a face-palm moment. Here I am trying to unravel these charges that we're anti-social assholes and you go and do that. But then I thought about it more deeply. And I realized that your taking offense here is evidence that within this group the demand to be offended exceeds the quantity of offensiveness produced. I consider it resolved, then, that if collectively we have any flaw here, it's not in being too offensive but in being too offended.

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 02, 2022, 09:30:27 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 08:01:30 AMLunamancer went out the way to quote the section where SB made a series of completely unfounded personal attacks against me, just to say they weren't like that (me). Now unlike you or SB, I'm pretty sure that Lunamancer didn't intend it that way. But it was still a shitty thing to do.

Go back to my post and compare it to post I was quoting. I quoted every single word of SB's post. I didn't omit any part. And I didn't go out of my way to quote any section of it. You are correct in that there was no intended offense. I stand 100% by my post, however. There was no shitty thing done, and I'm never going to agree with you on that.

Your reaction here at first gave me a face-palm moment. Here I am trying to unravel these charges that we're anti-social assholes and you go and do that. But then I thought about it more deeply. And I realized that your taking offense here is evidence that within this group the demand to be offended exceeds the quantity of offensiveness produced. I consider it resolved, then, that if collectively we have any flaw here, it's not in being too offensive but in being too offended.

I'm not part of the OSR, never have been. And have you paid the slightest bit of attention to the posts in this thread? I went out of my way to be helpful, and try to explain things. Doesn't work.

I spent several years here being nice, and ignoring insults, and trying to engage with people. It just got me dogpiled and attacked, with vicious claims about my mental state, my personality, my nature. Just like that piece of shit VisionStorm has been doing for the last few pages. Tolerating someone like that will get you nowhere.

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 02, 2022, 09:30:27 PMI'm not claiming that a large number of people have a favorable opinion of something, therefore it is good. You claimed the basic system is unintuitive. And that is refuted by the fact that a large number of people actually have learned and understood the basic game.

Plenty of people do [insert many things here] even though its unituitive. There are plenty of games with unintuitive elements that are played in spite of them. If I say a walnut has a hard shell, its not refuted by saying plenty of people eat their innards.

Anyway, before was my last post to pat, this is the last post to you.

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 03:51:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

The retro-clones aren't the heart of the OSR. They're just the framework, that allows it to exist. The skin, the meat, and the pumping blood of the OSR are zines and magazines like Fight On! or Wizards Mutants Laser Pistols, adventures like Death Frost Doom or Deep Carbon Observatory, bestiaries like Varlets & Vermin or Teratic Tome, megadungeons like Stonehell or Anomalous Subsurface Environment, settings like Yoon-Suin or Qelong, and strange crowd-sourced compilations like Santicore or Petty Gods, and on and on.

What you describe as "the pumping blood" is a bunch of stuff that most gamers I know have never even heard of much less actually read or played. Even if those are good, how much exposure do they really get? Can any of them be bought at the 'typical' FLGS or are they only available by direct order from (fairly obscure) websites?

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 03, 2022, 12:24:19 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 03:51:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

The retro-clones aren't the heart of the OSR. They're just the framework, that allows it to exist. The skin, the meat, and the pumping blood of the OSR are zines and magazines like Fight On! or Wizards Mutants Laser Pistols, adventures like Death Frost Doom or Deep Carbon Observatory, bestiaries like Varlets & Vermin or Teratic Tome, megadungeons like Stonehell or Anomalous Subsurface Environment, settings like Yoon-Suin or Qelong, and strange crowd-sourced compilations like Santicore or Petty Gods, and on and on.

What you describe as "the pumping blood" is a bunch of stuff that most gamers I know have never even heard of much less actually read or played. Even if those are good, how much exposure do they really get? Can any of them be bought at the 'typical' FLGS or are they only available by direct order from (fairly obscure) websites?

What do you and most gamers you know consider to be the pumping blood of the OSR?

And to be clear, you believe significant contributions to the OSR is measured by shelf space in FLGS?

I cannot believe you and all of these gamers you know, who understand OSR contributions, wouldn't know titles like Deep Carbon Observatory, Stonehell, ASE, Yoon-Suin, DFD, etc. I would like to also know what OSR products you and these players you know are buying in FLGS.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2022, 04:56:02 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 03, 2022, 12:24:19 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 03:51:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

The retro-clones aren't the heart of the OSR. They're just the framework, that allows it to exist. The skin, the meat, and the pumping blood of the OSR are zines and magazines like Fight On! or Wizards Mutants Laser Pistols, adventures like Death Frost Doom or Deep Carbon Observatory, bestiaries like Varlets & Vermin or Teratic Tome, megadungeons like Stonehell or Anomalous Subsurface Environment, settings like Yoon-Suin or Qelong, and strange crowd-sourced compilations like Santicore or Petty Gods, and on and on.

What you describe as "the pumping blood" is a bunch of stuff that most gamers I know have never even heard of much less actually read or played. Even if those are good, how much exposure do they really get? Can any of them be bought at the 'typical' FLGS or are they only available by direct order from (fairly obscure) websites?

What do you and most gamers you know consider to be the pumping blood of the OSR?

And to be clear, you believe significant contributions to the OSR is measured by shelf space in FLGS?

I cannot believe you and all of these gamers you know, who understand OSR contributions, wouldn't know titles like Deep Carbon Observatory, Stonehell, ASE, Yoon-Suin, DFD, etc. I would like to also know what OSR products you and these players you know are buying in FLGS.

Damn it, man!  Why are you going to apply logic to his perfectly good appeal to popularity?  I mean, if it isn't in Target, it doesn't exist, right?

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2022, 04:56:02 AM
I cannot believe you and all of these gamers you know, who understand OSR contributions, wouldn't know titles like Deep Carbon Observatory, Stonehell, ASE, Yoon-Suin, DFD, etc. I would like to also know what OSR products you and these players you know are buying in FLGS.

The what now?

In my experience the only bits of the OSR that actually manage to poke their noses above the surface of general internet static are actual game systems.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 03, 2022, 12:24:19 AM
What you describe as "the pumping blood" is a bunch of stuff that most gamers I know have never even heard of much less actually read or played. Even if those are good, how much exposure do they really get? Can any of them be bought at the 'typical' FLGS or are they only available by direct order from (fairly obscure) websites?

Exposure enough to earn one OSR publisher over a half a million dollars and climbing. Some OSR publishers pursue FLGS distribution some don't. Ultimately it doesn't matter as digital technology like the Internet allows small niches of a niche to have thriving communities and a vibrant but small industry.  I personally cleared profits in the low thousands starting with the Majestic Wilderlands in 2009. I am not unique in this.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 03, 2022, 06:51:31 AM
In my experience the only bits of the OSR that actually manage to poke their noses above the surface of general internet static are actual game systems.

Luckily OSR publisher (or any other publisher of niche RPGs for that matter) doesn't need to rise above general internet static. The only one that managed to do that is D&D and Wizards of the Coast.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 03, 2022, 06:51:31 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2022, 04:56:02 AM
I cannot believe you and all of these gamers you know, who understand OSR contributions, wouldn't know titles like Deep Carbon Observatory, Stonehell, ASE, Yoon-Suin, DFD, etc. I would like to also know what OSR products you and these players you know are buying in FLGS.

The what now?

In my experience the only bits of the OSR that actually manage to poke their noses above the surface of general internet static are actual game systems.

Well I'm not sure any part of the OSR rises above general internet static these days. I mean how could it compete with feather challenges and make your own deodorant in 30 seconds on the Tok?

Seriously though I do not know what to tell you. Remastered Deep Carbon put another 50k in Patrick Stuart's pocket just two years ago. And that was just the Kickstarter. The original is Platinum on DriveThru. So is Yoon-Suin.

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 02, 2022, 09:30:27 PMYour reaction here at first gave me a face-palm moment. Here I am trying to unravel these charges that we're anti-social assholes and you go and do that. But then I thought about it more deeply. And I realized that your taking offense here is evidence that within this group the demand to be offended exceeds the quantity of offensiveness produced. I consider it resolved, then, that if collectively we have any flaw here, it's not in being too offensive but in being too offended.

In fairness to the OSR, the behavior of one rabid member of these boards is not necessarily indicative of the behavior or mindset of the whole, though, there are certainly people like that in every community, particular online tied to various fandoms (with some perhaps more rabid than others). But there are plenty of people who are not like that as well (some in these boards, and some I've encountered elsewhere). And there were elements of this exchange that transcend the flaws of any single community and were more personal in nature, and tied to a certain individual's lack of humility and self-reflection.

So perhaps the whole community should not be held responsible for that, even though it is possible we may sometimes encounter similar (if perhaps not as heated) exchanges elsewhere. To some extend some communities may cultivate such tendencies or behaviors, but to another it is simply the nature of the internet and interpersonal communication, or even an individual's personal and unrecognized failings.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 03, 2022, 08:04:37 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 02, 2022, 09:30:27 PMYour reaction here at first gave me a face-palm moment. Here I am trying to unravel these charges that we're anti-social assholes and you go and do that. But then I thought about it more deeply. And I realized that your taking offense here is evidence that within this group the demand to be offended exceeds the quantity of offensiveness produced. I consider it resolved, then, that if collectively we have any flaw here, it's not in being too offensive but in being too offended.

In fairness to the OSR, the behavior of one rabid member of these boards is not necessarily indicative of the behavior or mindset of the whole, though, there are certainly people like that in every community, particular online tied to various fandoms (with some perhaps more rabid than others). But there are plenty of people who are not like that as well (some in these boards, and some I've encountered elsewhere). And there were elements of this exchange that transcend the flaws of any single community and were more personal in nature, and tied to a certain individual's lack of humility and self-reflection.

So perhaps the whole community should not be held responsible for that, even though it is possible we may sometimes encounter similar (if perhaps not as heated) exchanges elsewhere. To some extend some communities may cultivate such tendencies or behaviors, but to another it is simply the nature of the internet and interpersonal communication, or even an individual's personal and unrecognized failings.

Talking about yourself again? At least you're showing a degree of self-reflection.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2022, 07:46:00 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 03, 2022, 06:51:31 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2022, 04:56:02 AM
I cannot believe you and all of these gamers you know, who understand OSR contributions, wouldn't know titles like Deep Carbon Observatory, Stonehell, ASE, Yoon-Suin, DFD, etc. I would like to also know what OSR products you and these players you know are buying in FLGS.

The what now?

In my experience the only bits of the OSR that actually manage to poke their noses above the surface of general internet static are actual game systems.

Well I'm not sure any part of the OSR rises above general internet static these days. I mean how could it compete with feather challenges and make your own deodorant in 30 seconds on the Tok?

Seriously though I do not know what to tell you. Remastered Deep Carbon put another 50k in Patrick Stuart's pocket just two years ago. And that was just the Kickstarter. The original is Platinum on DriveThru. So is Yoon-Suin.

I think the heart of the OSR is self-publication. From a bunch of fans who created an entire game just because they wanted a legal way to publish modules for an out of print edition of a game owned by a big publisher, to the explosion of discussion on the blogosphere, to attempting re-create and publicize old ways of playing that were mostly lost, to the huge number of fan-produced modules, zines, games, and weird brick-a-brac.

Some have achieved critical success, and some have achieved commercial success and become small press operations in themselves, but it all started with a community of creative fans, and it was their work that created the buzz that helped propel the concept of the OSR into the mainstream.

Getting into the distribution network (Labyrinth Lord was an early example), and getting on the shelves of FLGS (very spotty) was never a priority for most of the community. As a result, it's just a few random things protruding from the tip of an iceberg.

Quote from: Pat on March 03, 2022, 09:38:02 AM
I think the heart of the OSR is self-publication. From a bunch of fans who created an entire game just because they wanted a legal way to publish modules for an out of print edition of a game owned by a big publisher, to the explosion of discussion on the blogosphere, to attempting re-create and publicize old ways of playing that were mostly lost, to the huge number of fan-produced modules, zines, games, and weird brick-a-brac.

Some have achieved critical success, and some have achieved commercial success and become small press operations in themselves, but it all started with a community of creative fans, and it was their work that created the buzz that helped propel the concept of the OSR into the mainstream.

Getting into the distribution network (Labyrinth Lord was an early example), and getting on the shelves of FLGS (very spotty) was never a priority for most of the community. As a result, it's just a few random things protruding from the tip of an iceberg.

For people who are interested in sharing or publishing stuff that works with classic editions of D&D the above is very accurate.

Regardless of the label there is a large group of hobbyists who publish/share for, promote, and play classic editions of D&D. Even folks who proudly say that they are not "OSR" or that they don't play OSR games but rather play B/X or AD&D are part of this group.

Regards of label, this group is taking full advantage of digital technology for creation and distribution (PoD and PDFs) and open content (d20 SRD) to breath new life into set of out of print RPGs.

I personally use the label OSR to refer to this group as that how I started using the term back in 2008. And it is easier to use than typing out those who play, promote, or publish for classic editions of D&D.

Other don't like the OSR because "they" (rarely specified) had committed one or more hobby or industry sin and thus it fake, bunk, etc., etc. The Pundit is notorious for using "they" without naming specifically who they are talking about. This thread has numerous examples of this usage.

My personal experience is that the only thing that the OSR is about is whatever is done is related to one of the classic editions of D&D. From OD&D 3 LBBs to AD&D 2e these out of print RPGs are the center of gravity of what OSR is.  Whether involves using them 'as is' or adapting their themes and ideas to one's own ideas.

A crucial enabling element is the use of digital technology and the internet to revitalize a community that in 1995 pretty much consisted of scattered groups of fans who mostly never stopped playing an edition older than AD&D 2e (the current edition of that time). After the d20 boom, AD&D 2e was thrown in the same boat as the rest of the classic editions. In the late 90s and the early 2000s, the internet allowed these people to find one another.

Within the larger d20 Boom there was a group of companies who made d20 product that harked back to how older edition played. Companies like Necromancer Games, Troll Lord Games, and Goodman Games were noted for this.

The final crucial enabling element is the use of the d20 SRD to recreate much of the classic edition. This was critical not because it allowed for clones and near clone. But enable for nearly the full range of support for the classic edition moving many projects out of the realm of "wink wink nudge nudge, I hope Wizards legal doesn't notice this." land.

Despite the attention and sales the clones get they are dwarfed creatively by supplemental products like adventures, settings, and rule supplements. Any list of "OSR" product whether it is modest or more expansive rulesets are swamped by the rest. For example the Hoards and Hordes list.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LUFmadXbg67pp9dEu_KsLc2-2Gf-0t5mVOvzetAqdFw/edit

The OSR is everything that can be done with a classic edition of D&D happening everywhere all at once. If one think the OSR is about something more than the fact it is tied in some way to a classic editions of D&D then they are mistaken. If a person thinks that part of the OSR is about something then likely they are correct.

And that applies to what I quoted from your post. There is a visible and active group of folks who sometimes label themselves part of the OSR and sometime not who are very much into self-publishing and were able to realize their projects in the form they wanted it to be in. Including myself. But me and the rest of this group are no more or no less the OSR than the group of old-time fans who play AD&D every week. Or the people who post commentary and advice through podcast or youtube video. Or the companies who support the classic edition but have a more traditional author-publisher-distributor-store setup. Or the folks who adapted things like dungeon crawls or hexcrawl setting to other system which can be very different from classic D&D.

Quote from: estar on March 03, 2022, 11:24:04 AM
Regardless of the label there is a large group of hobbyists who publish/share for, promote, and play classic editions of D&D. Even folks who proudly say that they are not "OSR" or that they don't play OSR games but rather play B/X or AD&D are part of this group.

Quote from: estar on March 03, 2022, 11:24:04 AM
And that applies to what I quoted from your post. There is a visible and active group of folks who sometimes label themselves part of the OSR and sometime not who are very much into self-publishing and were able to realize their projects in the form they wanted it to be in. Including myself. But me and the rest of this group are no more or no less the OSR than the group of old-time fans who play AD&D every week. Or the people who post commentary and advice through podcast or youtube video. Or the companies who support the classic edition but have a more traditional author-publisher-distributor-store setup. Or the folks who adapted things like dungeon crawls or hexcrawl setting to other system which can be very different from classic D&D.

I agree with much of what you said, but I'd make a few additional distinctions, and I think we disagree about the ultimate definition of the OSR.

There are still a lot of people who starting playing old games back when they were the current edition, and haven't stopped. Though back in the early aughts they were largely invisible to the internet, because they didn't have much of a presence on the web. One of the few places where they gathered was Dragonsfoot, but that was just a small part of a much larger community.

They predate the OSR, and don't necessarily know about the OSR. So I'd never call them OSR. They're just old school gamers.

The OSR was started by players of D&D third edition, who got tired of the current edition, and wanted to revert back to the fun they had with previous editions. The first thing they rallied around was Castles & Crusades, which is basically AD&D with the core mechanics stripped out and replaced by third edition-style mechanics. But there were some personality differences, and the ones who were to found the OSR split with C&C and went off to create OSRIC. But those players are distinct from the ones who never stopped playing the older editions. Instead, the OSR was founded by people had made the jump to third edition, and then went back. Many also had some experience with other experimental games from the 90s and early 00s.

The OSR grew out of OSRIC, and along the way changed pretty dramatically. One thing it did was fold in a lot of older players, especially luminaries from back in the day, which resulted in some of the original group of gamers who never stopped playing the older editions publishing newer things. This brought some of the formerly web-invisible players into visibility, and helped encourage them to publish, or at least to publish more polished materials for a wider audience. The OSR became a thing to rally around and identify with, and a place to share and promote. So there are original old school gamers who fall under the general rubric of the OSR.

But there are still significant numbers of old school players who aren't part of the OSR, in any real way. They may not even be familiar with the term, if their gaming circle is small.

I have been eyeing Old School Essentials and I gotta say, that book looks pretty appealing. 5e is fine for my games, and it's fine to introduce my daughter to D&D to a certain extent, but I cut my teeth on Holmes Basic and it seems to me at least possible my daughter would do better with fewer rules and more room to figure things out on her own that Old School Essentials might bring.