Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:44:02 AM
I'm not the one who engages in internet telepathy, VisionStorm.

Visionstorm may be the biggestasshole in the multiverse, but his accusations at you are true. You demand telepathy and accuse it of others.

Im done on this thread.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 01, 2022, 11:52:13 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:44:02 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 01, 2022, 11:42:12 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 10:11:13 AM
Is this you "de-escalating"?

You're a miserable human being.

No, that's me pointing out your complete lack of self awareness.

Me admitting my demonstrable flaws does not equal me submitting to your absurd expectations on how other people communicate* or your willfully wrongheaded interpretations of things that other people often didn't even say, but are merely your assumptions about their intent or deeper implications of what they said or didn't say, or who they quoted, etc. It just means that unlike you, I am capable of recognizing my flaws.

*Expectations that as Banshee points out you consistently fail to apply to yourself (because they're unachievable and absurd).

I'm not the one who engages in internet telepathy, VisionStorm.

You're a despicable human being.

No, you're just the one who loses their shit cuz somebody quoted somebody else that happened to have responded to you in other to make some other point. Then spend two pages trying to justify attacking them for implied attacks that weren't even expressed in their post. And are such a narcissistic un self-aware idiot that you refuse to recognize that even as you demand everyone else recognize their flaws, both real and imaginary that you projected onto them.

You're the one who started with the insults, I'm just respond in kind. Though I've been showing you the courtesy of making direct insults, instead of telling you what you think or what you feel. Which is the modus operandi of miserable assholes like you.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 12:03:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:44:02 AM
I'm not the one who engages in internet telepathy, VisionStorm.

Visionstorm may be the biggestasshole in the multiverse, but his accusations at you are true. You demand telepathy and accuse it of others.

Im done on this thread.

Fuck you. I attack people based on the content of their posts, VisionStorm attacks me based on imagined telepathic messages.

And yet another thread derailed by "who threw the poo first."

Last one out shut out the lights and lock the door.

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:37:25 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 12:03:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:44:02 AM
I'm not the one who engages in internet telepathy, VisionStorm.

Visionstorm may be the biggestasshole in the multiverse, but his accusations at you are true. You demand telepathy and accuse it of others.

Im done on this thread.

Fuck you. I attack people based on the content of their posts, VisionStorm attacks me based on imagined telepathic messages.

Whatever, dude. You're a delusional narcissist attacking people for imaginary slights requiring multiple degrees of motivated reasoning to even see them in their posts, cuz they aren't expressed anywhere in them, but merely your twisted, biased and uncharitable interpretation of them. And going like three+ pages strong trying to justify them cuz you can't see your own hand in any demonstrably imaginary shit you accuse others of. And you're still going and going, cuz everyone else is responsible for shit you adamantly and aggressively choose to see in their posts.

I'm out! 

OP: Hey guys, I love OSR games but there are some things I think could be better. What do you like and dislike about your favorite OSR games?

Several pages later:

I remember as a teenager I was talking to some fellow air cadets and discovered Dungeons & Dragons. I got involved in a local wargames club as a result. 1979. A long time ago. There was nothing sophisticated about FRPG back then. No sourcebooks, nothing but the bare rules, small ranges of inexpensive white metal figures, and a few modules to go with. Perhaps I'm being a little nostalgic but things were better then. No-one worried about 'streamlined rules' or for that matter rules to cover the slightest decision a player could possibly make. We had to wing a lot of it back then and I would still do so to this day.

It just seems to me that modern games are too heavy on rules anyway, never mind the endless full colour presentation that whilst making for a higher quality product, do absolutely nothing for the game itself. Pages upon pages of backstory and colour art. Is that what I'm paying for? I'm unashamedly old school I guess. I want accessible rules that can withstand extrapolation on the fly.

I also dislike intensely the sort of control that some RPG publishers seem to extend over their customers. RPG's are supposed to be about imagination. Adult versions of stories around the camp fire, myths, legends, and done in a social, interactive way. Yet a number of publishers sell products with a customer dependency built in, offering depth but quietly ignoring, or worse supressing, anything that conflicts with the company line. I never cease to be amazed at how dependent some people appear to be, and for that matter, I really do dislike the fashion and factions thing that I have to wade through every time I resume my interest in the genre.

D&D? For all its faults, a source of social interaction and many, many hours of great fun. Isn't that supposed to be why we play?

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 01, 2022, 07:10:47 PM
OP: Hey guys, I love OSR games but there are some things I think could be better. What do you like and dislike about your favorite OSR games?

Several pages later:

I replied somewhere in the massive argument going on. G'luck finding it now! 

I dont play "OSR" games.

I play BX and AD&D.

I dont need some made up "movement" comprised of like 50% design theft to do that or to tell me what to play or how to play. They give people trying to make legitimate tries a very bad rep.

For me BX gets the job done about as smoothly as possible, even with the quirks like level caps. It also meshes very well with r/2e Gamma World if have the conversion notes from AD&D.

"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it. 

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

No, its not harsh at all. Its what several deserve to be called. The OGL was for 3e D&D. It was not carte blanche permission to copy-paste BX or AD&D rules often whole cloth.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

The retro-clones aren't the heart of the OSR. They're just the framework, that allows it to exist. The skin, the meat, and the pumping blood of the OSR are zines and magazines like Fight On! or Wizards Mutants Laser Pistols, adventures like Death Frost Doom or Deep Carbon Observatory, bestiaries like Varlets & Vermin or Teratic Tome, megadungeons like Stonehell or Anomalous Subsurface Environment, settings like Yoon-Suin or Qelong, and strange crowd-sourced compilations like Santicore or Petty Gods, and on and on.

Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2022, 12:50:41 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

No, its not harsh at all. Its what several deserve to be called. The OGL was for 3e D&D. It was not carte blanche permission to copy-paste BX or AD&D rules often whole cloth.

Nobody has used the OGL to cut & paste B/X or AD&D. That's false. They had to use the text of the SRD, or write the rules in their own words. And they didn't even need the OGL to do the latter. You can't copyright a rule. (Though it did provide some legal cover / reduce the chance of nuisance lawsuits.)

And the OGL is a carefully crafted legal document. It's absurd to claim that it does not grant permission to do what it explicitly grants permission to do. It would be really hard to argue it's against some nebulous intent, as well, because Dancy and the other people behind the OGL were very clear that what they were trying to do was replicate the open source movement in software. They designed it to be free and wild and out of their control.

It's true that some later Wizards staff expressed discontent with the OGL. Tough. There wasn't a takesies-backsies clause. The creators of the OGL deliberately made it irrevocable.

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:05:40 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2022, 12:50:41 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

No, its not harsh at all. Its what several deserve to be called. The OGL was for 3e D&D. It was not carte blanche permission to copy-paste BX or AD&D rules often whole cloth.

Nobody has used the OGL to cut & paste B/X or AD&D. That's false. They had to use the text of the SRD, or write the rules in their own words. And they didn't even need the OGL to do the latter. You can't copyright a rule. (Though it did provide some legal cover / reduce the chance of nuisance lawsuits.)

And the OGL is a carefully crafted legal document. It's absurd to claim that it does not grant permission to do what it explicitly grants permission to do. It would be really hard to argue isn't against some nebulous intent, as well, because Dancy and the other people behind the OGL were very clear that what they were trying to do was replicate the open source movement in software. They designed it to be free and wild and out of their control.

It's true that some later Wizards staff expressed discontent with the OGL. Tough. There wasn't a takesies-backsies clause. The creators of the OGL deliberately made it irrevocable.

It's amazing to me, but some people get it in their heads that anything anybody does that resembles something someone else has already done is stealing from them, sometimes even if the "owner" of the original doesn't see the problem. Like the white people who scold other white people for "cultural appropriation" even when actual members of the culture being appropriated from don't give a shit.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 02, 2022, 04:25:44 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:05:40 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2022, 12:50:41 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
"Design theft"?
Rather a harsh word for it.

I agree its harsh. The OGL/SRD combo does give them permission to use it.

On the other hand, if many of them were turned in as a homework assignment they'd quite likely be rejected for plagiarism.

No, its not harsh at all. Its what several deserve to be called. The OGL was for 3e D&D. It was not carte blanche permission to copy-paste BX or AD&D rules often whole cloth.

Nobody has used the OGL to cut & paste B/X or AD&D. That's false. They had to use the text of the SRD, or write the rules in their own words. And they didn't even need the OGL to do the latter. You can't copyright a rule. (Though it did provide some legal cover / reduce the chance of nuisance lawsuits.)

And the OGL is a carefully crafted legal document. It's absurd to claim that it does not grant permission to do what it explicitly grants permission to do. It would be really hard to argue isn't against some nebulous intent, as well, because Dancy and the other people behind the OGL were very clear that what they were trying to do was replicate the open source movement in software. They designed it to be free and wild and out of their control.

It's true that some later Wizards staff expressed discontent with the OGL. Tough. There wasn't a takesies-backsies clause. The creators of the OGL deliberately made it irrevocable.

It's amazing to me, but some people get it in their heads that anything anybody does that resembles something someone else has already done is stealing from them, sometimes even if the "owner" of the original doesn't see the problem. Like the white people who scold other white people for "cultural appropriation" even when actual members of the culture being appropriated from don't give a shit.

   Well, I think you should think of it as I heard a once famous pro wrestling personality say it (no idea if he originated it), "Steal from one person its plagarism, steal from everyone its research.