I have a player who wants to learn how to be an alchemist. She plays a fighter, but an intelligent one. I suspect somewhere out there is a rule system for this and wondering if anyone has anything? She essentially wants to brew potions without paying someone to do it.
I am thinking something like a downtime activity over X months, with a laboratory and someone to train her at a minimum? Maybe some skill checks or gp cost to mark progress?
Thanks.
Basic Fantasy RPG has this as a supplement. Two, actually. And it's Basic Fantasy RPG, so naturally it's all free.
1. Secondary Skills. Alchemy is found under Intelligence skills.
https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/BF-Secondary-Skills-Supplement-r2.pdf (https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/BF-Secondary-Skills-Supplement-r2.pdf)
2. Background skills. This time you get skills because you used to do this sort of thing growing up or before you became an adventurer.
https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/BF-Background-Skills-r2.pdf (https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/BF-Background-Skills-r2.pdf)
The background skill set of rules is very bare bones. I like the Secondary Skill system better, but I included both because technically alchemy is in both PDFs.
My first and dominant thought, and I apologize because it is not a direct answer to your question, is that presents a slippery slope toward implementing a skills system that it is antithetical to the more rules-lite paradigm of the OSR (compared to the development of the d20 system paradigm, or games that are inherently based on skills systems).
My suggestion is that whatever you do, it should be done with an eye to any future similar requests, and be part of a coherent system to use for such skills/knowledge areas. Otherwise, you will look up and have a haphazard pseudo-secondary skill, pseudo-straight skills system. I am probably being pedantic and overreacting, but I thought it wise to raise this flag just in case you had not thought the issue through yet.
If it's me ruling?
You want to start making potions, switch classes to magic-user and gain lots of levels. Brewing potions is part alchemy, part magic, so that's the only real way to do it. MU 7 to be able to do the magic bits, and so can make potions with the assistance of an alchemist. MU 11 to have those alchemy skills.
If you want to just be able to do the alchemy bit, find an alchemist to apprentice under and spend 4 to 7 years of game time. Or a wish might allow you to alter your backstory so that you apprenticed as an alchemist rather than learning whatever secondary skill you started with.
Quote from: GamerforHire on October 21, 2023, 11:37:57 AM
My first and dominant thought, and I apologize because it is not a direct answer to your question, is that presents a slippery slope toward implementing a skills system that it is antithetical to the more rules-lite paradigm of the OSR (compared to the development of the d20 system paradigm, or games that are inherently based on skills systems).
My suggestion is that whatever you do, it should be done with an eye to any future similar requests, and be part of a coherent system to use for such skills/knowledge areas. Otherwise, you will look up and have a haphazard pseudo-secondary skill, pseudo-straight skills system.
I'd agree that the OSR has a different paradigm than skill-based systems like The Fantasy Trip, Basic Roleplaying, or Ghostbusters D6. However, I think those are all still rules-lite systems, and they are certainly simpler than AD&D1, and arguably simpler than the Rules Cyclopedia.
For the OP's question, though, I'd agree that one could go with the "rulings not rules" principle and don't try to make a coherent skill system for all possible skills. I'd partly agree with GamerForHire that it could lead to problems later, but not necessarily so.
Thanks all. One of the reasons I asked is because I have migrated my group from 5e to OSE Advanced and kind of wanted advice as I didn't want to get caught hurting the game by just making a ruling on the spot. What I listed in my original post is the approach I used for 5e. But I also recall AD&D had skills in Oriental (setting specific) and wasn't there some kind of skill system in UE (though I may be misremembering).
This particular player has always wanted to do things like learning new skills or languages during downtime (last campaign she started as a baker and eventually made magical cookies).
I'll review the basic rules. I do like the idea that this is really a MU type skill and you may need to switch classes.
This is the sort of thing that is just much easier to handle in Runequest (among old school games, and many others later).
Quote from: solomani on October 21, 2023, 03:05:47 AM
I have a player who wants to learn how to be an alchemist. She plays a fighter, but an intelligent one. I suspect somewhere out there is a rule system for this and wondering if anyone has anything? She essentially wants to brew potions without paying someone to do it.
I am thinking something like a downtime activity over X months, with a laboratory and someone to train her at a minimum? Maybe some skill checks or gp cost to mark progress?
Thanks.
Adventurer, Conqueror, King has "proficiencies", which are essentially "feats" and skills grouped into lists restricted by class and those available to all - assuming you have and spend the requisite points. ACKS is coming out with a new edition soon, but at least in the original, Alchemy is a "general" proficiency, meaning anyone can take it. However, in ACKS, your number of general proficiency slots is directly tied to your INT bonus, making smarter characters who decide to focus on an "off-brand" skillset have a better time of it than ones of lesser intellect.
Quote from: solomani on October 21, 2023, 03:05:47 AM
I have a player who wants to learn how to be an alchemist. She plays a fighter, but an intelligent one. I suspect somewhere out there is a rule system for this and wondering if anyone has anything? She essentially wants to brew potions without paying someone to do it.
I play OD&D and I let all player picks a "sub class" for their character. It can be anything they want, so a fighter could be a Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, or, as your player wants, an Alchemist. The player get's a bonus to perform an action that is within the general area of their subclass equal to their level. Half their level if it is kinda part of their subclass. But if the action is counter to their subclass it is -4 (such as a Paladin trying to carouse with a bunch of bandits).
The hardest part for DMing an alchemist is to come up with a list of ingredients for the various potions to balance power vs effort. But, as with everything, you only need to start small and have recipes for the most basic potions and gradually let the player find new recipes through play.
I admit that its all loosy goosy, but that's how I roll.
Nice ideas. Thanks.
Ok off to potion school you go! Ok that character is now retired. Roll up a new one.
I'd have the party get some interest in an alchemy shop. Then the player can get free potions for awhile before plot shows up and burns it down. That or sacrifice the next two or three fighter levels to learning alchemy instead of fighting.
This is why I like Palladium Fantasy. I'm my case I like 1st edition, but 2nd edition isn't different by that much.
All Player Characters get to pick skills at creation, as well as get a few more every few levels, usually every 3rd level,
This let's each player get things like riding exotic animals, cooking, carpentry, and more.
I'm reluctant to recommend that game as Alchemy is very clearly stated to be an NPC class that players can never be. In this case it's because most magical gear are made by alchemists, not just potions.
One other free game I can recommend is called Pocket Fantasy, in particular the class expansion. The Druid class gets potion brewing as one of their defining class abilities. They can make 2 potions per game session.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/283545/pocket-fantasy-rpg-class-compendium-vol-1 (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/283545/pocket-fantasy-rpg-class-compendium-vol-1)
But, my guess is sticking to OSE is your plan. In that case the optional rules I posted from Basic Fantasy is probably still your best bet.
So . . .
Dragons at Dawn is an attempt by D.H. Boggs to recreate what Dave Arneson was running at the dawn of the game. It has guidelines for Educations - 1d6 specialty skills at character creation, and more can be learned throughout their career. It does require downtime for it.
Here's a relevant quote:
Quote from: Dragons at Dawn
Education almost always occurs between adventures although some exceptions might be made. To develop a new specialty skill or improve an existing one, the character must find a teacher and provide just compensation to them for the lessons they receive. Characters do not automatically gain new skills or knowledge when they gain a level. Players must have their character spend time, in many cases a fairly long time, learning with a teacher, usually away from adventuring.
The things a character can learn are entirely open to the discretion of the Referee, provided they are fairly specific and not the broad categorical learning Sages and other classes possess. For example a Sage may be an expert in agriculture while a non Sage may have an Education bonus in tarn breeding or llama herding. Likewise, a character might learn how to pick pockets or mix a particular low level spell without any of the other abilities of the relevant class. Further, the Education bonus never increases by more than 1 point per study period and can never provide more than a +5 bonus to Attack values, Defense values, Hit Dice, or Saving Throws.
The book is a very interesting read. It's here on lulu (https://www.lulu.com/shop/dh-boggs/dragons-at-dawn-the-first-fantasy-game-system/ebook/product-1yzry964.html).
Furthermore,
Champions of ZED (Zero Edition Dungeoneering) is a follow-up publication that sought to synergize the Arneson & Gygax's many early notes. It has an Alchemist
class which is essentially a subclass of magic-user. They craft their spells (vials, potions, gels, scrolls) ahead of time, and each has a chance of being a dud. A first level spell is 1 week and 100gp, a second level 2 weeks and 500gp.
The advantage over traditional magic-users is Alchemists can go ahead and make spells that they haven't already "learned" and aren't of appropriate "level" for. The chance of a dud is just a lot higher in these cases. (This is also how they level up -- they have to make something new.)
Not sure if you can still get Champions of ZED anywhere. I got my hardcopy by contacting the author -- way back in 2016.
There is a version of it included in Tonisborg and you can grab a free PDF of those rules (https://www.tfott.com/tonisborg-resources) (the Players Supplement), but they don't include the Alchemist and I found it less interesting (I miss the quotes and different methods of combat resolution.)
One of the ideas I liked from certain loose "story" style games is the concept of fiction first: does what the player want to do make sense from the perspective of the rules of the world? Can fighters even learn alchemy in your world? Can only magic users, clerics or NPCs who don't train in a class do that? Does alchemy require magical casting or do potions only require physical ingredients mixed the correct way? So depending on that, your world may work differently than my world.
But in general I also don't worry about giving PC's too much power. Rule of Cool tends to work well and make games fun. If a ruling doesn't work out you're allowed to change your mind later.
Because I just found this game in the past couple of days I'm going to add this one here.
Olde Swords Reign. It's a old school revival (OSR), but based on both old D&D with current 5th edition bits added in.
https://osreign.com/ (https://osreign.com/)
Downloads are in the menu. It takes you to this google drive to download the PDF.
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1OyDASjG8Xf_PCJUjXHdDtIO1sWveZaKx?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1OyDASjG8Xf_PCJUjXHdDtIO1sWveZaKx?usp=sharing)
It comes with a similar "Background" skill system like Basic Fantasy. You get a bonus to create a potion if you have the Alchemist background.
The game is free, so just download it and check it out for yourself.
Worlds Without Number makes this easy, with both a generic craft skill to invest skill points in, and alchemist rules (including a Mundane Alchemist focus, and a focused alchemy skill just for those things).
But you probably aren't playing that, or any of the other OSR things with well defined pieces for that. One of the problems you face when trying to let a character brew potions or engage in other alchemical things is, these things may be rare in your game, and a PC having that skill makes it not rare. In that case, the PC should either be forbidden from doing so, or it should cost the PC something he would normally get as part of progression in his class. If your game has weapon and non-weapon proficiencies, he could pay one or two of those. He could perhaps give up an entire level of progression, gaining instead a single alchemist hit die and unlocking alchemy.
From a game balance perspective, alchemy means that you are you giving your PC access to a portable potion-and-other-minor-stuff shop, and he'll be paying about one third the price that buying such items would normally take. If that's unreasonable to you, ban it. Otherwise, lean into it- any good system has a bunch of things that an alchemist could make, and many of them have uses at all levels, but of course, they generally require the destruction of treasure to make.
In my current campaign, the party stumbled on the laboratory of the NPC spellcaster, and found potions brewing and had to decide what to do. One way to limit the impact of a player wanting his character to start brewing potions and making powders is just to arbitrarily jack up the prep time, forcing them to make hard choices for their character. The badass potion my party found was in week two of a three-week brewing cycle. You make your player spend a month to brew an invisibility potion, and see how well he can work that into adventuring with his fellow party members.
Quote from: solomani on October 21, 2023, 01:30:25 PM
Thanks all. One of the reasons I asked is because I have migrated my group from 5e to OSE Advanced and kind of wanted advice as I didn't want to get caught hurting the game by just making a ruling on the spot. What I listed in my original post is the approach I used for 5e. But I also recall AD&D had skills in Oriental (setting specific) and wasn't there some kind of skill system in UE (though I may be misremembering).
This particular player has always wanted to do things like learning new skills or languages during downtime (last campaign she started as a baker and eventually made magical cookies).
I'll review the basic rules. I do like the idea that this is really a MU type skill and you may need to switch classes.
He could possibly make a deal for arcane knowledge?
In my Back to the Dungeon RPG house rules, what I decided to do is have an XP cost with some in-between RP to train for "other" skills. Not that I actually have a "skill list" just backgrounds for skills. For instance if you were raised in a rural area and on a farm, you would have the skills that a country Farmer Boy would have. If you were raised in the city, you would have the skills of a city dweller depending on the size of the city. No point to have a giant skill list as it just slows things down!
I think one of the problems is that in OSR games, there's not much laid out for "how to learn things" that aren't strictly tied to your class. Weapon Proficiencies are the only piece present in AD&D 1e, and prior to that there wasn't anything at all. Second edition added the hilariously named "Non-Weapon Proficiency" and strangely rogues had like the worst progression there.
I've brought up Worlds Without Number because it has skill points, but that's because it's kind of hybridized with other classic games like Traveler- but characters in that game normally need to level up combat skills a bit too, such that a warrior would spend skill points on Stab or whatever. He wouldn't just have them as non-combat options as per 3.X or 2e.
Basically, do players have level-gated ways to learn things, or is it merely gated by time and gold? If your player wants to learn masonry, alchemy, and blacksmithing, is that something that can happen in your game, and how long does it take, and how much does it cost? In 3.X, he'd gain levels until he has the skill points and buy the skills. In 2e, he'd have to level a ton of times to earn the non-weapon proficiencies. In 5e, there's optional downtime rules to accomplish it. In most of OSR, he'd have had to have declared it in his background- or the DM could simply assign it to him for an arbitrary cost in time and gold. I think it's better to have that selected ahead of time so the players can go for it, or not, depending on what it takes and what they want.
I have an Alchemist feat in Old School Feats, but doesn't deal with creating potions - which is a whole subsystem IMO.
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Alchemy. You can identify potions with an Intelligence check. A failure means you cannot try again without drinking it. You also start each adventure with a random potion, already identified (permanent effects are not allowed). If you do not use it, there are 2-in-6 chances that the potion can be preserved for the next adventure.
Notes: Alchemy (M). Starting with random potions is fun! Adding crafting rules would be a whole different book, but you can allow alchemists to buy/create potions at half price if you already have a list.
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OSRIC has prices on potions, which is a start.
How long does it take? That's another can of worms - you have to decide about wages in your setting... alchemists should earn more than peasants but less than adventurers risking their lives...
B/X suggests 1000 gp per month, so they should provide at least that much value each month.
From OSE:
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Alchemist
Recreating potions: Based on a sample or recipe, an alchemist can produce a potion at twice the normal speed and for half the normal cost (see Magical Research).
Researching potions: An alchemist may also research new potions, but this takes twice as long and costs twice as much as normal.
--
Assuming the PC has a sample/recipe*, you could just say he creates 2000 gp worth of potions per month, and it costs 1000 gp to do so.
* This is fun because encourages questing for new potions/recipes.
THanks all. I went with the "it's going to cost time and gold" to do this. Which is the option to spend XP to speed things along. When I played 5e if someone wanted something that sounded like a feat, I would just use the same rules - sacrifice an ability score improvement for it in addition to time/money but it would be faster spending an ability score improvement.