Simply put, I don't like random chargen. I especially loathe 3d6 in order, producing wildly varying stats and giving the player no real choice about what character they might want to play. I'm not interested in debating the merits of that here, or how traditional it is, take that elsewhere.

Something the newer editions have, which any faithful OSR game doesn't, are a range of non-random methods of generating stats. I'm not a big fan of point buy for a range of reasons, but whenever anyone min-maxes it, they tend to basically produce something close to the standard array anyway. Thus my goal here, produce a "standard array" for OSR.

The standard array for 3.x, 4e and 5e is the same: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. In modifiers terms, this translates to +2, +2, +1, +1, 0, -1. The modifiers are slightly different in OD&D, having a wider middle band with no adjustments.

Using the modifiers as a guide, I'd reckon on an "OSR standard array" thus:  16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 8. With an additional 2 points the player can put wherever they like (including into the same ability score).

How does that look?

If I got rid of 3d6 in my B/X game the array would be 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,and 10. The bonuses are not that important and low scores are not that detrimental, so if randomness went I'd go with average.

D&D 3e included what they called the "non-elite" array, which they clarified was based on a normal distribution of results on 3d6 (rather than the elite/PC array which was based on the normal distribution of "4d6 drop the lowest").

The non-elite array was 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: KingofElfland;1070684If I got rid of 3d6 in my B/X game the array would be 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,and 10. The bonuses are not that important and low scores are not that detrimental, so if randomness went I'd go with average.

Even if it weren't the case that you get bonus XP with high scores, this entire argument is a nonsense. The character with the higher stat is on average more successful.

As I said, I'm not interested in debating the merits of removing randomness, which is what you're attempting to do in a roundabout way.

Quote from: Chris24601;1070686D&D 3e included what they called the "non-elite" array, which they clarified was based on a normal distribution of results on 3d6 (rather than the elite/PC array which was based on the normal distribution of "4d6 drop the lowest").

The non-elite array was 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Hope that helps.

That's +1, +1, 0, 0, -1, -1. So the OD&D equivalent would be something like: 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, 7.

Two alternative arrays is a useful thing to have, thanks for that.

Quote from: Kiero;1070682How does that look?

Looks like you have no idea what the standard array is. It's pretty simple -- it's an approximation of the median array you'd get, if you rolled 4d6 in order a zillion times. When 3.0 came out, someone on Usenet actually generated all possible arrays (6^24), and found that 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 array actually came pretty close to the median or modal array (there was one other that was slightly more common, or something equally minor). That's why it's a reasonable trade off for 4d6 in order. Roll 4d6 in order, risk getting lower or high stats. Or chose the array and have no chance of rolling high, but you're guaranteed the dice won't fail you.

A standard old school array is going to be base 3d6 in order, whether you like or not, because that's the OSR standard. Third edition had the nonelite array (your standard array is actually the elite array) for NPCs classes and generic monsters, which was 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. That's supposed to represent 3d6 in order, but it's not quite as close. The actual array would look more like 14, 13, 11, 10, 8, and 7. Which works out to +1, +1... -1, -1. but the 13 and 8 are just on the border and could be rounded the other way (12 and 9), which brings us back to the nonelite modifiers of +1... -1.

Now if you want an array for your personal purposes, that's fine. But don't pretend it's a standard array. It's just your array.

Quote from: Pat;1070690Looks like you have no idea what the standard array is. It's pretty simple -- it's an approximation of the median array you'd get, if you rolled 4d6 in order a zillion times. When 3.0 came out, someone on Usenet actually generated all possible arrays (6^24), and found that 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 array actually came pretty close to the median or modal array (there was one other that was slightly more common, or something equally minor). That's why it's a reasonable trade off for 4d6 in order. Roll 4d6 in order, risk getting lower or high stats. Or chose the array and have no chance of rolling high, but you're guaranteed the dice won't fail you.

A standard old school array is going to be base 3d6 in order, whether you like or not, because that's the OSR standard. Third edition had the nonelite array (your standard array is actually the elite array) for NPCs classes and generic monsters, which was 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. That's supposed to represent 3d6 in order, but it's not quite as close. The actual array would look more like 14, 13, 11, 10, 8, and 7. Which works out to +1, +1... -1, -1. but the 13 and 8 are just on the border and could be rounded the other way (12 and 9), which brings us back to the nonelite modifiers of +1... -1.

Now if you want an array for your personal purposes, that's fine. But don't pretend it's a standard array. It's just your array.

OK, mine's the elite array (and I've seen that run used interchangeably as elite or standard), and the one you just shared - almost identical to the one I just knocked up in post #4 - is the standard array. Either way, I now have two useful arrays:

Elite: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 8
Standard: 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, 7

Sigh.

You don't get it, Kiero.

According to a few sources, including AnyDice.

The standard array for 3d6 is...

14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 7

But keep in mind that in O and BX D&D you can shuffle points after rolling on a 2 for 1 basis within discrete limits. This allowed players to sacrifice a few points in one stat to bolster another.

What you could do is make up a table with various permutations of the order and have players roll on that.

Partial example

1 = 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 7
2 = 7, 12, 11, 10, 9, 14
3 = 12, 14, 11, 10, 9, 7
4 = 10, 11, 14, 7, 9, 12

and so on

The pregens in the Mentzer Basic Red Box are all built off an array. It's rather high as I recall. Late now, I'll see about digging it out tomorrow.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1070694Sigh.

You don't get it, Kiero.

No, I don't give a shit. I couldn't care less how it was done "back in the day" or what the aesthetic is or anything else. I don't care what your anecdotal experience was in your group.

My interest here is solely that OD&D has a neat little core system that runs fast. I'm not interested in any of the baggage that goes with it.

Quote from: Omega;1070700According to a few sources, including AnyDice.

The standard array for 3d6 is...

14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 7

But keep in mind that in O and BX D&D you can shuffle points after rolling on a 2 for 1 basis within discrete limits. This allowed players to sacrifice a few points in one stat to bolster another.

What you could do is make up a table with various permutations of the order and have players roll on that.

Partial example

1 = 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 7
2 = 7, 12, 11, 10, 9, 14
3 = 12, 14, 11, 10, 9, 7
4 = 10, 11, 14, 7, 9, 12

and so on

Thanks for the additional array. I'm looking at the modifiers, rather than just the scores alone; that seems a better guide than the ability scores alone.

As before, I'm eliminating the randomness on purpose. Replacing one with another doesn't really serve my purpose.

Quote from: S'mon;1070702The pregens in the Mentzer Basic Red Box are all built off an array. It's rather high as I recall. Late now, I'll see about digging it out tomorrow.

More data is always good, thanks.

Kiero can I suggest you play something else?

I'm not trying to be nasty, but really, just...there's plenty of other games that'll do what you want to do without you having to reinvent the wheel.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1070705Kiero can I suggest you play something else?

I'm not trying to be nasty, but really, just...there's plenty of other games that'll do what you want to do without you having to reinvent the wheel.

I've already reinvented the wheel with the reworking of ACKS I did a while back. This is just further evolution of the concept.

It's incredible that for a hobby that prides itself on people hacking things to meet a particular objective, there are so many purists who recoil at the notion of someone changing something as trivial as how ability scores are generated.

Just use whatever you want, I'd say. IMO you could use 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, since the "modern" method of rolling abilities was already popular in the AD&D days IIRC.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;1070708Just use whatever you want, I'd say. IMO you could use 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, since the "modern" method of rolling abilities was already popular in the AD&D days IIRC.

I could do, but that won't line up with the modifiers given by later systems, given the wider unmodified range in the middle. That's +1, +1, +1, 0, 0, -1, closer to standard than the elite that represents.

Found it - the humans use 17 16 14 11 9 8. The demi-humans use 16 14 11 9 9 7.