What the tin says, how do you handle (if you do) Fame/Infamy on your table?
Do you have it affect reactions, loyalty, price to get hired, none or what?
I am also very interested in how other systems do "fame" rules.
I have the latest edition of L5R, and it has a kind of point based reputation system.
But after looking at it I think I would divide such a system into 2 different categories.
Fame.
Reputation.
I think it could be done with a point system for each and a little extra book keeping on the players side.
But the trick here is how much would that effort pay off in the game?
Anyone here game with such a system?
How does it effect play at the table?
Worth the hassle?
Quote from: Jaeger;1130502I am also very interested in how other systems do "fame" rules.
I have the latest edition of L5R, and it has a kind of point based reputation system.
But after looking at it I think I would divide such a system into 2 different categories.
Fame.
Reputation.
I think it could be done with a point system for each and a little extra book keeping on the players side.
But the trick here is how much would that effort pay off in the game?
Anyone here game with such a system?
How does it effect play at the table?
Worth the hassle?
When I use it I do it like this:
-3
-2
-1
0
+1
+2
+3
You start at level zero with neither fame nor infamy (so zero in the scale), good deeds give you fame and bad deeds infamy (of course this is relative and takes the POV of the one judging you, you got a good name among Humans, Elves, Dwarves & Halflings because you have killed many goblins saving people from their clutches, and a bad rep among goblins if any escaped and told the tale.)
To get from 0 to +/- 1 it takes some effort, you saved/destroyed a kingdom for instance, and so on.
Once you get a modifier it takes something almost as big to loose it and it gets to be added to reaction rolls, diplomacy, loyalty, salary negotiations...
The Honor rules in Oriental Adventures for AD&D 1 were the best part of that later AD&D supplement. They were a way to handle this, using different terms is all. So, don't necessarily have to go to OSR for a suggested rule or guideline, if you didn't want too.
I've never really done anything with it, but I've put some thought into it.
I debated a Repute stat, though in many ways level works as a good enough proxy. A 1st level character is a veteran or sergeant, a 2nd level character is a lieutenant, a 4th level character is a hero, a 5th level character is a captain or steward, a 9th level character is a noble. This wouldn't vary a lot, because power levels scale so dramatically with character level, and provides a natural progression.
There may be exceptions among NPCs, but among PCs it serves as a good stand-in of.... well, it's not the same as fame, it's more professional acclaim. The Dark Lady may be unknown to the general public, but among who know of her, she is regarded as a consummate thief.
Conversely, if you're unknown in an area, having sufficient level generally means you can establish your bona fides pretty quickly. Maybe let the player come up with some dramatic bit of swordplay or sleight of hand, that is basically the in-game equivalent of saying "I'm X level". People who witness those kind of stunts can recognize when they're well matched (within a level?), when they out-class someone, and when they're outclassed. I'm inclined to link the latter to something like the BECMI Master Set rules for intimidating an opponent.
On a related note, repute or level is also linked to range. You may be considered one of the best in a village, a town, a city, a province, or a whole nation, depending on your rating.
There might be different characteristics associated with a character's repute. Someone might have general fame or be secretive, have a good or bad reputation, or be known for trustworthiness or betrayals. Some kind of tag system, earned in-game and then maintained, might work.
This could be linked to things like the sage rules for finding information. Being public would have the advantage that more of the common people would recognize the character, which can affect reaction rolls. Being secretive means it's harder for people get information about you. Though I'd say that level always brings some degree of notoriety -- the Dark Lady, for instance, is at least a dark rumor.
It's not OSR, but I'm planning on using the core damage mechanics in my system to handle Social/Reputation damage as well. The system uses a combination of condition monitor and damage thresholds where characters accumulate damage, and the more points of damage the worse the character's health is. Every 10 points of damage (or perhaps 20, if 10 is too low) the character suffers a cumulative -1 penalty to relevant rolls. Once the character reaches a certain threshold (like 50 points, for example) the character is in "Critical" condition and must make a Survival roll to stay alive, in the case of physical damage.
In the case of Social Damage, the damage is tracked for each affected party, which may be an individual or a group or faction in the world. The cumulative penalty would apply to all social rolls when dealing with the affected party, and once the Critical threshold is reached the character must make a "Survival" roll to avoid their reputation with the affected party being shattered, turning them automatically hostile whenever they meet the character.
Either component could be applied to other systems as well, since it's just a matter of keeping track of the damage sustained and adding cumulative penalties every X amount of points (divisible by 10 to make it easier to remember), and setting the Critical threshold at 5 times value at which cumulative penalties occur (50, 100, etc.). You just need to establish how much damage different types of actions or circumstances cause to get a baseline for how high the break off points for cumulative penalties and damage threshold should be.
EDIT: Forgot to add that the cumulative penalties are on a d20 scale.
I use Level + Charisma vs. D20 roll (plus/minus modifiers based on location and NPCs involved).
The PCs reputation is stronger in the area they operate the most and it diminishes as they go farther away. However, if they've committed particular deeds that matter to particular people, then their reputation goes farther for those particulars.
For instance, if the PCs killed a major demon which had been haunting and defiling a dwarven temple, then the likelihood of both Dwarfs and Clerics knowing the PCs by reputation increases and would continue farther away from their home base.
Also, I allow PCs to spread their reputation by hiring bards to sing their tales.
Of course, reputation is a double edged sword.
Remember that demon? The cult who summoned it to punish the dwarves ALSO gets higher chance to recognize the PCs.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1130565Also, I allow PCs to spread their reputation by hiring bards to sing their tales.
Hey, this is a cool bit!
Quote from: Kuroth;1130515The Honor rules in Oriental Adventures for AD&D 1 were the best part of that later AD&D supplement. They were a way to handle this, using different terms is all. So, don't necessarily have to go to OSR for a suggested rule or guideline, if you didn't want too.
Thanks for the tip will read it.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1130565I use Level + Charisma vs. D20 roll (plus/minus modifiers based on location and NPCs involved).
The PCs reputation is stronger in the area they operate the most and it diminishes as they go farther away. However, if they've committed particular deeds that matter to particular people, then their reputation goes farther for those particulars.
For instance, if the PCs killed a major demon which had been haunting and defiling a dwarven temple, then the likelihood of both Dwarfs and Clerics knowing the PCs by reputation increases and would continue farther away from their home base.
Also, I allow PCs to spread their reputation by hiring bards to sing their tales.
Of course, reputation is a double edged sword.
Remember that demon? The cult who summoned it to punish the dwarves ALSO gets higher chance to recognize the PCs.
Yes, reputation is inversely proportional to the square of the distance that separates the center of operation of the PC's and other places in the world/universe/multiverse.
Of course reputation should reflect the POV of those hearing your exploits.
I hadn't thought about hiring bards to increase your rep, could a wealthy individual do so to create a false reputation for himself/others? Or could anyone pay to inflate their reputation?
Thinking of the vultures following the gungslinger to sell their tales inflating the tales to please the readers. Something like that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1130586I hadn't thought about hiring bards to increase your rep, could a wealthy individual do so to create a false reputation for himself/others? Or could anyone pay to inflate their reputation?
Thinking of the vultures following the gungslinger to sell their tales inflating the tales to please the readers. Something like that.
Works for infamy, too. Maybe even better than rep. I've had moments when the NPC reaction to the powerful PCs was precisely to start up a widespread account of their activities that was
mostly true, but slanted to help the NPC agenda.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1130593Works for infamy, too. Maybe even better than rep. I've had moments when the NPC reaction to the powerful PCs was precisely to start up a widespread account of their activities that was mostly true, but slanted to help the NPC agenda.
Yes, of course, it has to work both ways. I'm ashamed to admit even after watching The Witcher I hadn't thought of using it like this, since it works exactly like this there.
Hackmaster 4e has some insanely complicated rules for tracking honor which is basically this.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1130565Also, I allow PCs to spread their reputation by hiring bards to sing their tales.
Throw a coin to the Witcher?
Such is the life of a Witcher. Living on the silver scraped together by some out in the middle of no where village. ha
Gygax found the idea interesting, and put Repute, Disrepute and Dark Repute in Lejendary Adventures.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1130565Also, I allow PCs to spread their reputation by hiring bards to sing their tales.
I remember doing just this in a campaign back in the 80s. And since the campaign was in a PvP phase by then, we also mounted similar "ad campaigns" to badmouth the rival party.
It was all good fun. But I don't believe the DM used any kind of dice mechanic to resolve actions like this. As with all diplomatic-type plans, good ideas tended to work, and bad ideas tended to backfire. The DM knew the ins and outs of the "target market," so he was in a position to determine whether our actions were likely to succeed. A case of rulings over rules, I guess.
Quote from: Zirunel;1130697I remember doing just this in a campaign back in the 80s. And since the campaign was in a PvP phase by then, we also mounted similar "ad campaigns" to badmouth the rival party.
It was all good fun. But I don't believe the DM used any kind of dice mechanic to resolve actions like this. As with all diplomatic-type plans, good ideas tended to work, and bad ideas tended to backfire. The DM knew the ins and outs of the "target market," so he was in a position to determine whether our actions were likely to succeed. A case of rulings over rules, I guess.
I don't tend to use a rep or fame mechanic, either. Though if I did, it would be one much as described earlier, because the effect of rep or fame or infamy is ultimately a modifier to a reaction roll or the equivalent, and I get pretty stingy with such modifiers, fast.
That is, if the party has done something minor, locally, lately, then it is easy to get a +1 bonus to influence various local NPCs. Otherwise, "What have you done for me lately?" Getting to +2 is going to take a much greater achievement, though such an achievement might make that +1 stick around longer or be a little more widespread in its effects. I only tend to note such effects mechanically when the party has done something sustained and impressive for an area--enough where if you were only making rulings that some of the NPCs would feel a sense of obligation or gratitude or similar. Even then, I might not note it mechanically, but rather just record "party did X which impressed locals at Y".
The same effect would apply to grudges. Only a few NPCs will hold a long-lasting grudge, but once you get to that point, it's difficult to get past it.
I was looking over the OSR game For Coin & Blood today, since it was beside something else I was getting on the bookshelf. ha I recalled that it implements an Infamy attribute, just below Charisma on your sheet even. The game tries to focus a fairly original D&D rule set to playing criminal types, doing jobs for coin, see. Infamy is used to adjust payment for jobs. The infamy attribute could be used more through-out the game, but there is mention of it in organizing/joining gangs and other criminal organizations. There are rules for raising infamy based upon a save throw for various activities.
Pre-3e D&D seems to assume that Level = Fame, and I generally go with that. This is used in some newer D&D too, eg Primeval Thule 5e has PCs attract followers at higher level same as 0e-2e D&D.
Level can 100% be looked at that way, particularly when taking a look how level affects some of the results. A fame or similar value can seem redundant, sort of another level system on top of the level system. That said, it can help some players and DMs pull that out to give it a highlighted value. So, I get why it might be something desired. One of the reasons I think it was in Lejendary Adventure, was old Gygax wanted that fame element of level to sometimes be counter to level So, perhaps a character of a certain level has lower fame than a character of the same level, and other similar adjustments.
I think I saw a Level = Fame rule once, but don't remember where (maybe some 2e supplements? IDK). But I think it also had modifiers for how well known the character was throughout the region, if they had done particularly good or bad deeds in the area, and stuff like that. So Fame was a factor of your level and deeds in the area, and might get temporary modifiers for recent deeds or bards spreading their tales to bolster their reputation (or damage it), etc.
The way fame or similar can be set with different groups, nations, factions etcetera, is one of the ways I would be in favor of using such a rule. Sorry to bring up Lejendary again, but the repute, disrepute, dark repute set-up in it was supposed to be set for whatever group, people and so on. It wasn't fully given examples or given proper space on the default character sheet, but that was the way it was supposed to be used.
A game that set various groups as favored or disfavored or some form of alliance or enmity has a very similar effect.
Quote from: Kuroth;1131137I was looking over the OSR game For Coin & Blood today, since it was beside something else I was getting on the bookshelf. ha I recalled that it implements an Infamy attribute, just below Charisma on your sheet even. The game tries to focus a fairly original D&D rule set to playing criminal types, doing jobs for coin, see. Infamy is used to adjust payment for jobs. The infamy attribute could be used more through-out the game, but there is mention of it in organizing/joining gangs and other criminal organizations. There are rules for raising infamy based upon a save throw for various activities.
Will try and buy it, thanks
Quote from: Kuroth;1131248The way fame or similar can be set with different groups, nations, factions etcetera, is one of the ways I would be in favor of using such a rule. Sorry to bring up Lejendary again, but the repute, disrepute, dark repute set-up in it was supposed to be set for whatever group, people and so on. It wasn't fully given examples or given proper space on the default character sheet, but that was the way it was supposed to be used.
A game that set various groups as favored or disfavored or some form of alliance or enmity has a very similar effect.
Thanks again, will try to get it too.
I have occasionally used systems that had "fame" rules. Aces & Eights, for example, where I thought it was useful to measure how well known a given gunslinger was.
In my OSR games, I don't typically use that, though in my latest L&D campaign I've instituted a fame mechanic (calling it "glory" in a nod to Pendragon), where it's a straightforward measure of how famed your character is. Some characters start with bonuses to it if they're from higher social class, or if they are Knights, or Clerics. I often use it as a measurement of who in the group is more likely to be paid attention to by important NPCs.
But for the most part, I play fame and infamy by ear, not with a mechanic, reflecting what the PCs have done over the course of the campaign and where. In my DCC campaign, Bill the Elf (close to level 10, the highest level in the game) is almost globally infamous.