Quote from: pspahn;369354Awesome! A lot of people ripped on No Dead Ends saying it took away player responsibility and encouraged Illusionism but I don't care. I write what I play and that techniques served me well for 27 years now so I'm not changing.

Pete

What? They ain't right, that's for sure. I think having to jump through more hoops to get info on a failed roll for investigations instead of having the game completely stall because the players aren't all Kojak and Columbo clones is a brilliant idea, screw them. It's not like fudging in combat or something, man people are silly. What, exactly, is "player responsibility" anyway? I thought we were talking about playing games for entertainment... meh, I'll never understand. I'm with ya anyway, I think No Dead Ends rocks, and Miami Nights rocks too. Looking forward to seeing Stormrifts.

Quote from: Sigmund;369425What? They ain't right, that's for sure. I think having to jump through more hoops to get info on a failed roll for investigations instead of having the game completely stall because the players aren't all Kojak and Columbo clones is a brilliant idea, screw them. It's not like fudging in combat or something, man people are silly. What, exactly, is "player responsibility" anyway? I thought we were talking about playing games for entertainment... meh, I'll never understand. I'm with ya anyway, I think No Dead Ends rocks, and Miami Nights rocks too. Looking forward to seeing Stormrifts.

Well people always nitpick extreme worst case scenarios. The example being players who refuse to look for clues because they know the GM will eventually  point them in the right direction, although why you'd want to run games for a group like that is beyond me. Not to mention that I clearly state that No Dead Ends is for players who are trying to conduct an investigation but either miss a key clue or botch a roll. I think Lucky Bust in Miami Under Fire was an example of this iirc and I think there was at least one or two more.

I'm looking forward to Stormrift too. Had a lot of fun writing the setting info. Look for a short free Stormrift/post-apocalypse scenario on the precis collaborative soon.

Pete

Quote from: pspahn;369352Well it would be stupid from a marketing standpoint to disregard the OSR if your game happened to fit their criteria of old school. Once the game is written it's all about getting the attention of those who would be most interested in playing it.  I mean if there was a large AIOE Renaissance (alien invasion of earth) going on that felt that only alien invasion of earth rpgs were worth playing, I'd certainly be a fool not to market Stormrift to them, even if I felt other genres were still playable.

Pete

By that logic I should have made Gnomemurdered a storygame.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;369829By that logic I should have made Gnomemurdered a storygame.

RPGpundit

Why??  I'm talking about marketing a game that's already written, not writing a game to fit a specific market.

Pete

But I think that certain games, made in certain ways, are not going to be marketable in those particular subcultures. If you're making anything other than a Clone, for example, I have serious doubts that any amounts of public relations will make a serious dent into the OSR crowd.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;369893But I think that certain games, made in certain ways, are not going to be marketable in those particular subcultures. If you're making anything other than a Clone, for example, I have serious doubts that any amounts of public relations will make a serious dent into the OSR crowd.

RPGPundit

Umm, Pete said - and you quoted: "Well it would be stupid from a marketing standpoint to disregard the OSR if your game happened to fit their criteria of old school." (Italics mine.)

In other words, if your game fits the OSR criteria, i.e. is a clone of early D&D games, then it would be stupid not to market to them. That makes perfect sense, and is the exact corollary of what you have stated, that it makes no sense to market a game to the OSR crowd unless it's a clone [of an older version of D&D]. Maybe you read that wrong?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;369895Umm, Pete said - and you quoted: "Well it would be stupid from a marketing standpoint to disregard the OSR if your game happened to fit their criteria of old school." (Italics mine.)

In other words, if your game fits the OSR criteria, i.e. is a clone of early D&D games, then it would be stupid not to market to them. That makes perfect sense, and is the exact corollary of what you have stated, that it makes no sense to market a game to the OSR crowd unless it's a clone [of an older version of D&D]. Maybe you read that wrong?

-clash

Is Genrediversion a clone of an older version of D&D, or even of a game from the era generally discussed?

Quote from: J Arcane;369897Is Genrediversion a clone of an older version of D&D, or even of a game from the era generally discussed?

No, so his game does not fit the OSR criteria, and it would be stupid to attempt to market to them. *I* have been saying this since the beginning of this thread - post #13, page 2. Pete realized this - by page 3 at the latest - and was just saying that if his game *had* been acceptable to the OSR crowd, he would have been remiss not to market to that crowd. I agree. Pundit seems to be objecting to that conclusion.

-clash

I bet I could write an rpg that wasn't a clone that would have significant appeal among at least a particular subset of the OSR (pretty much the Knights & Knaves Alehouse crowd). Well, let me amend that -- I bet I could come up with a general concept for an rpg that, were someone with more talent and discipline than me to actually write up and produce, would have significant appeal etc etc. etc.

The main trick is that it would have to be something that didn't try to compete with or replace the games they (who am I kidding -- we) already have and like -- replacement-D&D or replacement-Traveller isn't ever going to fly, but there are plenty of other genres and styles out there that remain relatively untapped from an old-school rpg perspective. It wouldn't appeal to everybody and displace D&D at the top of the heap (nor would it try to) but it could garner at least as much attention and mindshare as, say, Encounter Critical.

So here's a challenge for anyone who'd like to take up the gauntlet: design an old school game (at least on the conceptual level) that doesn't compete with D&D or Traveller...or, I'd suspect, Gamma World/Mutant Future.

Let me start by suggesting an old-school horror game.

I'm not sure it's possible, really, but maybe it is. The issue I'm thinking of as an obstacle is that beyond mechanics, old school games also seem to have a general idea of "characters as ambitious drifters". D&D, Trav, Gamma World...see the pattern?

Quote from: T. Foster;369904...

The main trick is that it would have to be something that didn't try to compete with or replace the games they (who am I kidding -- we) already have and like -- replacement-D&D or replacement-Traveller isn't ever going to fly, but there are plenty of other genres and styles out there that remain relatively untapped from an old-school rpg perspective. It wouldn't appeal to everybody and displace D&D at the top of the heap (nor would it try to) but it could garner at least as much attention and mindshare as, say, Encounter Critical.

So are you saying it could not be fantasy or sci-fi?  That is, are you saying anything fantasy would have to be a D&D clone to sell to the OSR?  So a TFT clone wouldn't be part of the OSR?  I'll leave off Dragon Warriors and Runequest two games I'd consider old school but since they have current commercial editions that carry the torch there is no need for a revival.

I'm curious why you pick out Traveller for the sci-fi part of the OSR.  From what I recall of old school D&D sites Star Frontiers got much more love, in fact many seemed to not know of Traveller and fewer still have played a game.  I'm thinking a Star Fronteirs clones could be OSR, but then again they released the pdfs for free IIRC.

Finally, would the Traveller fantasy "clones" like Wanderer or Adventurer be of interest, in your experience, to the OSR?

Quote from: Xanther;369906Finally, would the Traveller fantasy "clones" like Wanderer or Adventurer be of interest, in your experience, to the OSR?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but when I saw that mockup, I began reaching for my wallet. :cool:

It could be fantasy, but non "D&D-style" fantasy. I think it would be possible to design a fantasy rpg with both a more overtly fairy-tale style flavor and one with a more overtly acid-trip space-fantasy style flavor that would appeal to at least some OSR folks (since both of those would be distinct enough from D&D's flavor to not really feel like they're overlapping and you need to choose one or the other). Other genres that occured to me when writing the previous post were Lost World (super-science vs cave men and dinosaurs), modern horror (vampire hunters, kicking ass in the wake of the zombiepocalypse), Robert Ludlam-style spy shit, and Victorian-era Kipling-style adventure (politically-incorrect white men kicking asses across colonial Asia and Africa).

Quote from: T. Foster;369910It could be fantasy, but non "D&D-style" fantasy. I think it would be possible to design a fantasy rpg with both a more overtly fairy-tale style flavor and one with a more overtly acid-trip space-fantasy style flavor that would appeal to at least some OSR folks (since both of those would be distinct enough from D&D's flavor to not really feel like they're overlapping and you need to choose one or the other). Other genres that occured to me when writing the previous post were Lost World (super-science vs cave men and dinosaurs), modern horror (vampire hunters, kicking ass in the wake of the zombiepocalypse), Robert Ludlam-style spy shit, and Victorian-era Kipling-style adventure (politically-incorrect white men kicking asses across colonial Asia and Africa).

What would make them appeal to the OSR crowd specifically instead of just being good games that are appealing?  I'm pretty sure all those examples already exist as games and they don't generally get OSR love... at least not on the blogs.

Quote from: Stuart;369911What would make them appeal to the OSR crowd specifically instead of just being good games that are appealing?  I'm pretty sure all those examples already exist as games and they don't generally get OSR love... at least not on the blogs.

They would be designed and marketed in such a way that old-schoolers would find them appealing, which is not the case with any of the existing games (presumably in design, definitely in marketing -- I know of at least one contemporary game (Aces & Eights) that, on the basis of its design and production should be popular (or at least recognized) among the old-school crowd; the fact that it isn't (beyond an occasional stray mention) isn't because the old-school crowd will reject any western game that isn't a Boot Hill clone but because, AFAICT, Kenzer & Co. simply haven't done anything to market it towards them/us).