Okay, I see posts about the OSR and I get the fact that it's a return to simpler systems and promoting fun gameplay. So why is precis intermedia's genrediversion line, particularly Genrediversion 3, never mentioned as part of the OSR?  It has a simple universal 2d6 + skill vs. target number resolution mechanic, stat blocks for monsters and npcs take up about a paragraph, and gameplay is fast and exciting, with quite a few options for expanding and modifying the game without breaking the system.  Maybe I don't fully understand the OSR. Does a game have to be fantasy to be part of the OSR? Because I tend to think of D&D and Star Wars when I think old school.  

I'll admit I have a vested interest here. My upcoming Stormrift RPG is written for GD3 and everyone who has played it says it has a very old school vibe going for it, even down to the art.  So I was just wondering what makes a game part of the Old School Renaissance.

Pete

Quote from: pspahn;368015Okay, I see posts about the OSR and I get the fact that it's a return to simpler systems and promoting fun gameplay. So why is precis intermedia's genrediversion line, particularly Genrediversion 3, never mentioned as part of the OSR?

Lack of knowledge and penetration into the OSR crowd. People interested in old school gaming don't talk about it because they do not know about it. It's that simple.

Quote from: pspahn;368015It has a simple universal 2d6 + skill vs. target number resolution mechanic, stat blocks for monsters and npcs take up about a paragraph, and gameplay is fast and exciting, with quite a few options for expanding and modifying the game without breaking the system.  Maybe I don't fully understand the OSR. Does a game have to be fantasy to be part of the OSR? Because I tend to think of D&D and Star Wars when I think old school.

There's no such thing as a "rite of passage" or a "list of features" that make a game OSR or not. The term itself, "Old School Renaissance" refers more to a trend in interests and games designed with old school tastes in mind rather than an hermetic group of people with a "member card" or such comparable bullshit.

What you've got is different opinions of different people interested in old school gaming debating the merits of this or that feature of this or that game as they relate to their interests in gaming. That's about it.

To me, a game like Traveller, say, sounds very much OSR. So a game doesn't have to be about fantasy for me to look at it as an example of "old school gaming" in action. According to this view, Genrediversion 3 might be very old school, I do not know. It's like porn: I know it when I see it. See what I mean?

Quote from: pspahn;368015I'll admit I have a vested interest here. My upcoming Stormrift RPG is written for GD3 and everyone who has played it says it has a very old school vibe going for it, even down to the art.  So I was just wondering what makes a game part of the Old School Renaissance.

Pete

Fair question, and very fair of you to point it out. Can you point out what type of feedback you get that makes people say it's got a strong OS feel going for it? Are they more specific in their remarks, or it's a general feeling about the game?

There's a lot of opinion as to exactly what OSR is, but by an extremely narrow definition, it's confined to original D&D, AD&D 1st edition, Holmes D&D, Moldvay B/X D&D and retro-clones of those titles.

Then you get into broader definitions including BECMI D&D, games very similar to AD&D like C&C, 2nd Ed. AD&D.

Then there's the other older non-D&D games and their clones like Gamma World and Mutant Future.

Finally there are new games that people say have the 'old school feel' like Hackmaster Basic.

By the narrowest definition, GD3 is not D&D so it's not OSR. It doesn't use the same mechanic as D&D so it would probably be more of an outlier on the penumbra. It's tough to get new games into the hands and minds of OSR gamers because they've already got their favorite game and have had it and used it for over 30 years. It's much easier to convince them they'd be interested in a supplement/setting/adventure for their favorite game then convince them to try a new system altogether.

Quote from: pspahn;368015Okay, I see posts about the OSR and I get the fact that it's a return to simpler systems and promoting fun gameplay.

Actually about the only thing you will find people in the Old School Renaissance agree on is that older edition of games are as fun to play today as they were back in the day. Other than pretty much anything goes.

I would say your statement about a return to simpler systems is true of many involved in the OSR but not all. Promoting fun gameplay is fairly accurate as it goes hand in hand with the attitude about older editions.

Quote from: pspahn;368015So why is precis intermedia's genrediversion line, particularly Genrediversion 3, never mentioned as part of the OSR?  It has a simple universal 2d6 + skill vs. target number resolution mechanic, stat blocks for monsters and npcs take up about a paragraph, and gameplay is fast and exciting, with quite a few options for expanding and modifying the game without breaking the system.  Maybe I don't fully understand the OSR. Does a game have to be fantasy to be part of the OSR? Because I tend to think of D&D and Star Wars when I think old school.  

In a nutshell because it not D&D or based on anything that coexisted with D&D. Doesn't mean a new RPG can't be sold to OSR fans, Encounter Critical has a following, Maze & Minotaur has a following. Spellcraft & Swordplay is somewhat different and it too has a following. But the 800 lb gorilla of the OSR is the various older edition of D&D.

This compounded by the fact that OSR is shifting from rulesets to supplementary products.

Quote from: pspahn;368015I'll admit I have a vested interest here. My upcoming Stormrift RPG is written for GD3 and everyone who has played it says it has a very old school vibe going for it, even down to the art.  So I was just wondering what makes a game part of the Old School Renaissance.

Participate in one or more of the Old School Forums, start a blog with a Old School Focus. As for Stormrift talk about how it implements various Old School concepts. What you should not do is say or imply that is fixes, improves, or evolves anything. If you do that you will be ignored, or mocked.

While you want to build up a fanbase for your RPG 'as is' also talk about what people using other old school RPGs can get out of it.

Remember that you dealing with a diverse crowd marching to different drummers. An approach that works with the Knights & Knaves crowd doesn't always work with the Dragonsfoot Crowd, or with the OD&D Discussion forum crowd and so on. Again the only common element is the agreement that older editions are as fun to play today as they were back in the day.

Finally be prepared for all your efforts to take a fair amount of time to take hold. My own Old School author endeavor started in 2000 and only really took off last fall when I published the Majestic Wilderlands.

Quote from: Benoist;368020What you've got is different opinions of different people interested in old school gaming debating the merits of this or that feature of this or that game as they relate to their interests in gaming. That's about it.

There is a market in the OSR. It small and largely focused on older edition D&D. I would not characterize it just a bunch of people discussing things on the internet.

Quote from: GoOrange;368023T
By the narrowest definition, GD3 is not D&D so it's not OSR.

It not as simple as that. Games like Spellcraft & Swordplay have a following. Encounter Critical and Maze & Minotaur have small followings.

Having said that trying to sell anything for money that is not D&D is definitely a difficult sell. To the point where you better makes sure you use the other outlets available for promoting new RPGs.

The main reason I am pointing this out is that I don't like to discourage authors just because their stuff isn't D&D. Instead I like to point out the things they can do to improve their chances of acceptance. The OSR isn't 100% D&D so there is a chance. Not a good one but a chance.

Quote from: GoOrange;368023It's tough to get new games into the hands and minds of OSR gamers because they've already got their favorite game and have had it and used it for over 30 years.

This is one of those blanket statements about the OSR that is not wise to assume. The retro-clone in particular have proven that they can drawn in the new and young game. Granted a it is a drop in the bucket compared to D&D 4e. But it growing not shrinking.

I would say the majority of my sales go to younger and newer gamers not folks that been playing the same game for 30 years.

Quote from: GoOrange;368023It's much easier to convince them they'd be interested in a supplement/setting/adventure for their favorite game then convince them to try a new system altogether.

Yup new or old the focus is pretty much on older editions. If an author wants to sell to the OSR I recommend they implement their ideas using one of the early edition of D&D.  If they really like a particular system then release that as well but sell through the methods used by authors with new RPGs. (Which I don't know anything about other than the vaguest ideas.).

Quote from: estar;368033There is a market in the OSR. It small and largely focused on older edition D&D. I would not characterize it just a bunch of people discussing things on the internet.

Good point. I can see how my characterization could be misconstrued that way. What I meant to stress was that there are different people with different tastes who will get interested in old school gaming. What you referred to as the differences in tastes and inclinations you get from contrasting people visiting dragonsfoot or Knights & Knaves, OD&D Discussion forums or the blog crowd. I don't think that's limited to an internet audience either.

QuoteSpellcraft & Swordplay is somewhat different and it too has a following.

Just a note here for folks interested from afar in old school gaming to say that S&S is an awesome game that doesn't get nearly enough recognition as it truly deserves IMO. The basic idea here was to create an OD&D variant with a "what if" scenario that went a bit like "What if the D&D alternate combat system of OD&D never came to be, but instead the authors would have stuck more closely to Chainmail's assumptions?" It does include a general resolution mechanic, uses 2d6 for pretty much everything, is incredibly flavorful and in the end, a coherent game that would be great to play. It's really good. (free download of the basic rules available there)

Quote from: Benoist;368020Fair question, and very fair of you to point it out. Can you point out what type of feedback you get that makes people say it's got a strong OS feel going for it? Are they more specific in their remarks, or it's a general feeling about the game?

Thanks Benoist. I also consider Traveller to be old school.

The feedback I've gotten from the system usually has to do with how easily it plays.  There's no flipping through pages to find rules and the default mechanics (particularly the "fixes" to combat found in GD3) encourage heroic action which reminds us a lot of the D6 System and Red Box D&D.
 
With Stormrift, people seem to like the open-ended nature of the setting and the quirkiness of the cybernetic and psionic rules add-ons. Three different groups have played it, including mine, and went a long way towards alleviating my biggest fear which was that adventures would get repetitive or be limited in scope. In a nutshell, Stormrift is a sort of cross between WWII and War of the Worlds, and I was worried the game might become more of a wargame, but the other groups seemed to be having fun scavenging ruins and managing resources for their community in addition to completing assigned missions. My group said the missions reminded them of dungeon crawls in the fact that they left their home base, completed a mission, and then returned to rest, advance characters, and resupply for the next one. The group goal oriented focus is something we had gotten away from with other games that emphasize more individual achievements. Plus the art has a very Retro feel to it that I think fits the game perfectly.

All of which I'm told combines to make the game feel very old school, but since I consider myself old school (as opposed to just old), I wasn't sure if that's just the way I run games or if it's indicative of the game itself.

I guess I was mainly wondering if it was a play style that makes something part of the OSR or if a game could be considered part of the OSR without the author having explicitly stated that he was creating it as such.

Pete

PS - I'm on my mobile today so my responses might be limited but thanks for all the feedback so far.

And okay, these posts help me understand it better. I see now that the OSR is focused mainly on fantasy, D&D in particular, which basically answers my question.  

Thanks all,

Pete

Looking over your blog and the fact you are looking at a d6 version. Why can't make this into a more serious Mutant Future type supplement if you want to sell to the OSR.

While most treated Mutant Future as a bit gonzo I am sure that many would receive a setting like yours with some enthusiasm.

Quote from: estar;368051Looking over your blog and the fact you are looking at a d6 version. Why can't make this into a more serious Mutant Future type supplement if you want to sell to the OSR.

While most treated Mutant Future as a bit gonzo I am sure that many would receive a setting like yours with some enthusiasm.

Well, I had originally started writing this for D6, which plays a lot like GD3 from a GM standpoint, but I pretty much scrapped the idea after I couldn't figure out what was happening with OpenD6. A shame too because D6 will always be one of my go-to systems.

Pete

Quote from: pspahn;368053Well, I had originally started writing this for D6, which plays a lot like GD3 from a GM standpoint, but I pretty much scrapped the idea after I couldn't figure out what was happening with OpenD6. A shame too because D6 will always be one of my go-to systems.

Pete

I believe you're able to publish anything you want using the d6 mechanics.  You just can't call "d6 System" or use the old logo?  At least, that's what conversations here lead me to believe.  and this topic comes up...weekly?

Quote from: winkingbishop;368063I believe you're able to publish anything you want using the d6 mechanics.  You just can't call "d6 System" or use the old logo?  At least, that's what conversations here lead me to believe.  and this topic comes up...weekly?

Yeah I got that. I just don't like the way it's all being handled.

Hey, Pete! based on my experience with FtA!, Old School Feel =/= entry into OSR market. The OSR market is very much focused on clones of/older editions of D&D, and peripherally other old games/systems. New games are not going to be considered by the OSR folks on that basis. GD3 - while an awesome system - is not old at all. Even Traveller isn't considered really old school, even though it's been around since 1977 - it's too fundamentally different from the D&D-esque standard. You will have to make your own market, though it helps that most of PIG's other games are GD!

-clash

Quote from: pspahn;368015Okay, I see posts about the OSR and I get the fact that it's a return to simpler systems and promoting fun gameplay. So why is precis intermedia's genrediversion line, particularly Genrediversion 3, never mentioned as part of the OSR?

I have never heard of it, frankly.

Of course, it is an uphill battle. I can write any random two-sheet RPG with chargenm, task resolution and a bit of flavour in under three hours, and it will even be good. Give me a lot of money and I can write one for any pagecount of your choice. Now GD3 may be better than all the random two-sheet RPGs written in under three hours, but you will have to do the work to convince me -- and I am very happy and comfortable with the rules I already have. So yeah, not easy.