Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them. I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon. I see "Old School Rules" a lot. Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase? ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla? I appreciate your patience with me.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them. I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon. I see "Old School Rules" a lot. Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase? ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla? I appreciate your patience with me.
The latter.
The R in OSR isn't even 100% agreed upon... depending on the user it means Revival, Renaissance, Revolution, Rules, etc.
Basically, it's a collection of systems broadly compatible with one of the TSR editions of D&D; most typically a variant of Basic, 1e or OD&D.
To me the definition of OSR is any RPG game based on D&D style rules. Six ability scores, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and you play using a 1D20 dice and hit the other guy by beating their Armor Class number.
Beyond that it's more nuanced. Some games use old school descending armor class, while others go ascending. Spells per day, or magic points. Sometimes armor does more than change what your AC is, like damage reduction, either fixed or a dice roll in its own right. Or games use dexterity to hit with both melee and ranged weapons, and strength is used change damage points.
I don't consider remakes of other game systems as OSR. A remake of Shadowrun 1E, or Palladium Fantasy 1E isn't an OSR. That term is specific to D&D copycats.
As I understand it, the point of "OSR" being a broad label for a bunch of different games was that the games should be at least largely cross-compatible with each-other. In that sense, it would have to be restricted to games which are built on the structure of TSR-era D&D (six attributes in a 3-18 range, AC, hit dice, saving throws, class/level, etc).
That said, the term certainly gets used a lot more broadly. Partially this is because there is a legitimate "old-school gaming" and retro-revival movement in the wider RPG space (see other retro games like Warlock! or Against the Darkmaster, or old games getting republished such as Maelstrom or Dragon Warriors). Equally though, I think it's because the term "OSR" became something of an identifier in the ongoing TTRPG culture war. I assume because of the involvement of high-profile dissidents like RPGPundit and James Raggi, a lot of people view "OSR" as being a catch-all name for those that are ideologically opposed to the direction of WOTC and some of the other "mainstream" game publishers. I think this is why you sometimes see publishers like Free League lumped in with the OSR, even though they don't strictly make "OSR games". Maybe it would be better if there was a handy umbrella term for old-fashioned or retro gaming as a whole, and "OSR" was a defined subset of that, but that doesn't seem to be how things have played out.
Personally, I would like to see the OSR indulge a little more innovation when it comes to breaking out of the D&D mold. If you hang around forums like this one for any time, you'll see dozens of different OSR games recommended, and I've grown increasingly discouraged every time I check one out, and its just the same restatement of the B/X or BECMI rules, classes and spells, with a few slight tweaks and different fluff text.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them. I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon. I see "Old School Rules" a lot. Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase? ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla? I appreciate your patience with me.
I said this back in 2009 and still hold true today.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/07/old-school-renaissance.html
QuoteTo me the Old School Renaissance is not about playing a particular set of rules in a particular way, the dungeon crawl. It is about going back to the roots of our hobby and seeing what we could do differently. What avenues were not explored because of the commercial and personal interests of the game designers of the time.
I realize that it is not a specific answer but it does accurately reflect the fact the what the OSR is is about what it's participants do. There is no dominant individual or company that influence it's creative direction other than what could be done with the themes and mechanics of classic editions of D&D. What direction that goes depends on the whims of yourself and other authors.
"OSR" as used today is splunge. The meaning is entirely in the mind of the person speaking or hearing the word.
Monty Python documentary on the term "splunge":
https://vimeo.com/617393744
It does not describe a coherent idea because the "OS" sources are contradictory, and this is before we even consider modern interpretations of these sources. When searching for traps do we "interrogate the fiction" or do we just roll? Do we play with a mapper and a caller or do we ignore that suggestion? The only answer that would be consistent among several tables playing the same early edition of D&D would be: yes, no, both, neither, and it depends.
So, IMO, the only meaningful definition of OSR is general compatibility with early versions of D&D and AD&D.
This is a good conversation.
Is there a ruleset that is prefered for making OSR games. Are people using the OGL document? OSIRIC? Old School Revival?
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 01:50:49 PM
This is a good conversation.
Is there a ruleset that is prefered for making OSR games. Are people using the OGL document? OSIRIC? Old School Revival?
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's. I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets. Nor is it that important anyway.
That being said, the single most popular OSR game seems to be Old School Essentials?
I would argue this, as it wouldn't be my choice of OSR rules. I prefer to have races and classes separated, to have ascending armor class only, because armor shouldn't be rated like 18th century warships. The whole "1st rate armor is AC-1, the best of the best" is dumb as hell to me. Ascending AC is best, though I'm not even sure AC as a concept is actually good either. I like armor that stops damage, not stops you from being hit in the first place.
So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.
The other is Star Adventurer, but that is because it goes a bit out of the norm and is a Star Wars game, not a fantasy elves and castles game. It has a few features I like as well, such as force powers are skill checks, instead of the really silly use and forget magic system that even some other D&D style Star Wars games still try to shoehorn into their rules, usually badly. Also, Star Adventurer has a table you roll on for your PC as you level up. Roll on it twice, or if you really want something you can pick once instead of rolling twice. That is a bit neat.
As you can see there is a common theme here. They're all pretty much the same. The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal.
Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...
Quote from: Trond on January 07, 2023, 07:49:41 AM
Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...
The non-OGL OSR (and just OS) like Palladium Fantasy 1e look like they might be the only viable ones to carry the torch if Hasbro gets its way.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's. I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets. Nor is it that important anyway.
Is there an document with these rules for creating OSR games? Also, would this be effected by the crap Wizard is trying to pull?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.
I find Basic Fantasy boring and lacking options. I played in a game using Basic Fantasy and I was just bored.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
As you can see there is a common theme here. They're all pretty much the same. The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal.
Cool thanks.
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:21:11 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's. I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets. Nor is it that important anyway.
Is there an document with these rules for creating OSR games? Also, would this be effected by the crap Wizard is trying to pull?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.
I find Basic Fantasy boring and lacking options. I played in a game using Basic Fantasy and I was just bored.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
As you can see there is a common theme here. They're all pretty much the same. The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal.
Cool thanks.
Yes, it's called OSRIC.
No, not all the OSR games are the same, what exactly did you find lacking from Basic Fantasy? Options? There's a ton of free supplements on their website. And, with the GM's approval, you can pretty much import anything from 0DD to AD&D to Basic to BECMI with minimal work.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: Trond on January 07, 2023, 07:49:41 AM
Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...
The non-OGL OSR (and just OS) like Palladium Fantasy 1e look like they might be the only viable ones to carry the torch if Hasbro gets its way.
The problem isn't with the OGL but with using the SRD IF WotC does try to close the previously open content from older editions (3.5 & 5e) to try and extract money and destroy the competition.
Without using the SRD the license IMHO is perfectly fine since it doesn't give WotC any rights over your shit.
For instance OpenD6 is under the OGL but doesn't use WotC's SRD.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
Yes, it's called OSRIC.
No, not all the OSR games are the same
I have OSRIC and I like it and I will use its OGL to create some product.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:24:38 PMWhat exactly did you find lacking from Basic Fantasy? Options? There's a ton of free supplements on their website. And, with the GM's approval, you can pretty much import anything from 0DD to AD&D to Basic to BECMI with minimal work.
It's just boring and uninspired to me. Didnt care of it. Like OSRIC better. I guess to each his own.
In short, OSR refers to Old School Renaissance.
The Renaissance refers to Gary Gygax's TSR editions of Dungeons & Dragons and the play-style those games engendered.
Role playing over roll playing
Sandbox over railroad
Lethality over powderpuff
Story emerges from play, it does not precede play.
Low fantasy over high fantasy
Now, how exactly those things manifest can vary between groups but the basic tenets are the same.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them. I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon. I see "Old School Rules" a lot. Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase? ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla? I appreciate your patience with me.
Forgive me if this is obvious but: Wizards of the Coast bought TSR and created a 3rd edition of D&D that played a bit different than the TSR games in a number of ways. They released a lot of their game content to a semi-public domain status under a legal document called the OGL. The content is all available in a
Systems
Reference
Document (https://www.d20srd.org) to encourage folks to create more D&D content and expand the market. The SRD is content game creators can borrow and change to create their own products as long as they include the OGL page. Folks have used that information to create games that play similar to the old games mentioned previously.
Also a lot of this came after folks read the
Quick Primer to Old-School Gaming by Matt Finch (https://friendorfoe.com/d/Old%20School%20Primer.pdf). Download that because the primer has become very hard to find online lately. At least I ran into a lot of 404s while searching.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them. I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon. I see "Old School Rules" a lot. Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase? ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla? I appreciate your patience with me.
Originally, it was a wonderful concept.
Now it is just an advertising gimmick.
I think it's both
Part of it is rules that are based on the old D&D/AD&D engine, including things like Gamma World, original Tekumel, Metamorphosis Alpha, and even the Buck Rogers RPG
OTOH, it's also a way of play. When 3rd edition came out, we played it like 1e. It worked. Only after a time did the major differences start to show (and after the rules lawyers showed up, but high level play and making monsters were tricky regardless of those)
But even so, I think a lot of the things in 3e that were so different were taken from Rolemaster, since Monte Cook was a designer for ICE. The painful skill system, the huge number of hit points, critical hits, etc
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:21:11 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's. I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets. Nor is it that important anyway.
Is there an document with these rules for creating OSR games? Also, would this be effected by the crap Wizard is trying to pull?
A document? Not that I know of.
But all you really need is the six attribute lineup (3-18 scores) with some derived modifiers that apply to related rolls, a "saving throw" mechanic of some type, class-based progression, and a d20 v Target Number resolution. Everything else (feats, an exhaustive skill list, etc) is just additional options.
QuoteI find Basic Fantasy boring and lacking options. I played in a game using Basic Fantasy and I was just bored.
That sounds like a GM problem more than a system problem. Any game can be boring if the person running it doesn't cater to it's strengths. Gaming is a proactive medium; it is what you make of it. It's not like a movie where you are a passive audience.
I found some of the mechanics of Basic Fantasy to be antiquated, but then I think that was a deliberate design decision rather than a flaw. Still, I have enough gaming experience under my belt that a few minor tweaks were no problem.
At the beginning there was a lot more 'give', with people arguing that any old school game had potential for the OSR. That quickly got narrowed down to D&D (like everything in this hobby). It took a while, but by now I think OSR has pretty much coalesced around clones and reinterpretations of B/X. OSRIC may have started it but everyone else has taken AD&D elements and converted them to B/X. Or starting from B/X and creating new mechanics. Usually combined with one particular masochistic style of old-school play cherry picked from a hobby where, at the time, every table did things its own way.
Quote from: Effete on January 08, 2023, 05:05:11 AM
A document? Not that I know of.
But all you really need is the six attribute lineup (3-18 scores) with some derived modifiers that apply to related rolls, a "saving throw" mechanic of some type, class-based progression, and a d20 v Target Number resolution. Everything else (feats, an exhaustive skill list, etc) is just additional options.
OSIRC has a license and a document to use and I really like the rules and will probably go with that.
Quote from: Effete on January 08, 2023, 05:05:11 AMThat sounds like a GM problem more than a system problem. Any game can be boring if the person running it doesn't cater to it's strengths. Gaming is a proactive medium; it is what you make of it. It's not like a movie where you are a passive audience.
I found some of the mechanics of Basic Fantasy to be antiquated, but then I think that was a deliberate design decision rather than a flaw. Still, I have enough gaming experience under my belt that a few minor tweaks were no problem.
It wasn't the GM. The person running it had years of GM experience, even more than me. It was the system, it just wasn't a fit.
If it works for you than great. For me, I would never play it again.
Dude, if you ask 50 people in the OSR what the OSR actually is, you'll get 60 different answers. ;D
I have a hot sports opinion - I think the OSR is just another Purity Spiral.
Depends on which OSR you want to focus on...
The AD&D Revival OSR = they want to play TSR era stuff and maybe new stuff that is TSR era rules compatible. This is probably the largest player base for the OSR and the realm of OSR publishers who really just want to sell AD&D stuff.
The D&D-ish Homebrew OSR = they want new stuff that is 75% akin to one of the TSR era rulesets, usually B/X D&D. AKA, stuff like Labyrinth Lord or Stars without Number. This is probably the largest focus for OSR publishers.
The New Stuff OSR = they want new stuff that's focused on the spirit and sensibilities of the early RPGs, but may have 50% or less mechanics from those games. AKA, Mothership or Cha'alt.
The Non-TSR OSR = they want to play and revive RPGs that aren't D&D, aka all the D100 games, the Not-Traveller clones, etc.
i would define it by the gameplay loop and subsystems for that; the gold-xp-monster-treasure cycle, the established parameters for dungeon/wilderness exploration, the game on the dm side of the screen found in random generation of encounters and treasures. narrative or lack of not withstanding, if it has this sort of automated sandbox loop i counts it.
I would say that when it comes to rules, the OSR emulates game systems pre-3E D&D. Most of the OSR material does concentrate on pre-2e D&D though.
Idea or mindset? A similar thread was posted at Dragonsfoot.org. here's my response:
-rulings vs. rules: means in the OS way, if you didn't have a rule for it, you made a ruling at that time and stuck with it. Now? There seems to be a rule for EVERYTHING. Whichever one is better is a personal opinion.
- tables vs. lack thereof: LOTS of tables in OS games, which shows the wargaming connection. I think that's kinda cool. Modern tends to do away with tables mostly, at least when it comes to anything combat related. It's mostly apposing dice rolls or some target number thingy. Again, personal preference. I prefer the former and not the latter
-basic character classes and races vs. everything but the kitchen sink: PCs in the OS were mostly pretty basic as far as skills and abilities. The Core Four (Fighter, Cleric, MU, Thief) didn't have much to them. Even the sub-classes just had a few extra special abilities. It was up to you as the player to make them unique in the game. Give them personality, if you wanted to. Even the races to pick from didn't have too many special skills. Humans didn't have any! Modern has skills, abilities, and races that are greatly influenced by online RPGs. LOTs a skills and abilities, even for the basic classes. I prefer the former. If I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game thankyouverymuch.
which leads to...
-challenging the player vs. challenging the character: with the previously stated about PC classes and races, because of the minimum amount of those skills and abilities, much of the challenges met in OS were to challenge the player of that character: to be creative to get out of a situation, to figure out a riddle or puzzle, etc. Now in Modern, most of it is reduced down to a roll of the dice. Need to negotiate with a group of bandits? Somebody probably has a skill for that. need to figure out a riddle based in the lore of a long lost race? I'm sure a PC has a skill to help out. I think a balance can be made, but I'd rather not leave it down to a die roll every single time. Nor should you keep trying to break the brains of every player at the table. That can get exhausting. I prefer more challenges to me as a player than dice rolls for everything you throw at me. It's the satisfaction of ME overcoming the challenge, not some numbers on a piece of paper and dice rolling.
zeros vs. already heroes: This goes with my 4th point above. PCs in OS started off as "zeroes": nobodies. You had to earn you way up the ladder to be someone. Ability scores were fixed for the most part. In Modern, most PCs has a boat load of special skills and talents. You can even improve ability scores and start way above normal people. You already start as a hero. Now IMO that takes away entirely from the Hero's Journey. If you already have a bunch of cool skills, talents, etc. and already somewhat made a name for yourself, then what is the point? IMO, the intrinsic value of the PC earning the fame, fortune, and power along the way is much more interesting than a PC that already has some of that from the get go.
That's just my opinion. YMMV.
In France and Germany I have primarily heard people refer to OSR as a style of play, irrespective of the rules system used.