Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them.  I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon.  I see "Old School Rules" a lot.  Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase?  ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla?  I appreciate your patience with me.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them.  I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon.  I see "Old School Rules" a lot.  Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase?  ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla?  I appreciate your patience with me.

The latter.

The R in OSR isn't even 100% agreed upon... depending on the user it means Revival, Renaissance, Revolution, Rules, etc.

Basically, it's a collection of systems broadly compatible with one of the TSR editions of D&D; most typically a variant of Basic, 1e or OD&D.

To me the definition of OSR is any RPG game based on D&D style rules.  Six ability scores, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and you play using a 1D20 dice and hit the other guy by beating their Armor Class number.

Beyond that it's more nuanced.  Some games use old school descending armor class, while others go ascending.  Spells per day, or magic points.  Sometimes armor does more than change what your AC is, like damage reduction, either fixed or a dice roll in its own right.  Or games use dexterity to hit with both melee and ranged weapons, and strength is used change damage points. 

I don't consider remakes of other game systems as OSR.  A remake of Shadowrun 1E, or Palladium Fantasy 1E isn't an OSR.   That term is specific to D&D copycats. 

As I understand it, the point of "OSR" being a broad label for a bunch of different games was that the games should be at least largely cross-compatible with each-other. In that sense, it would have to be restricted to games which are built on the structure of TSR-era D&D (six attributes in a 3-18 range, AC, hit dice, saving throws, class/level, etc).

That said, the term certainly gets used a lot more broadly. Partially this is because there is a legitimate "old-school gaming" and retro-revival movement in the wider RPG space (see other retro games like Warlock! or Against the Darkmaster, or old games getting republished such as Maelstrom or Dragon Warriors). Equally though, I think it's because the term "OSR" became something of an identifier in the ongoing TTRPG culture war. I assume because of the involvement of high-profile dissidents like RPGPundit and James Raggi, a lot of people view "OSR" as being a catch-all name for those that are ideologically opposed to the direction of WOTC and some of the other "mainstream" game publishers. I think this is why you sometimes see publishers like Free League lumped in with the OSR, even though they don't strictly make "OSR games". Maybe it would be better if there was a handy umbrella term for old-fashioned or retro gaming as a whole, and "OSR" was a defined subset of that, but that doesn't seem to be how things have played out.

Personally, I would like to see the OSR indulge a little more innovation when it comes to breaking out of the D&D mold. If you hang around forums like this one for any time, you'll see dozens of different OSR games recommended, and I've grown increasingly discouraged every time I check one out, and its just the same restatement of the B/X or BECMI rules, classes and spells, with a few slight tweaks and different fluff text.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 06, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
Forgive my ignorance.
I play exactly two RPGs, my own being one of them.  I follow along best I can, but I sometimes get lost in the jargon.  I see "Old School Rules" a lot.  Is old school rules an actual concrete game system, with a core rule book that you can purchase?  ...Or, is this a concept, a idea of games like D&D before WOTC came in and turned it into vanilla?  I appreciate your patience with me.

I said this back in 2009 and still hold true today.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/07/old-school-renaissance.html

QuoteTo me the Old School Renaissance is not about playing a particular set of rules in a particular way, the dungeon crawl. It is about going back to the roots of our hobby and seeing what we could do differently. What avenues were not explored because of the commercial and personal interests of the game designers of the time.

I realize that it is not a specific answer but it does accurately reflect the fact the what the OSR is is about what it's participants do. There is no dominant individual or company that influence it's creative direction other than what could be done with the themes and mechanics of classic editions of D&D. What direction that goes depends on the whims of yourself and other authors.

"OSR" as used today is splunge. The meaning is entirely in the mind of the person speaking or hearing the word.

Monty Python documentary on the term "splunge":
https://vimeo.com/617393744

It does not describe a coherent idea because the "OS" sources are contradictory, and this is before we even consider modern interpretations of these sources. When searching for traps do we "interrogate the fiction" or do we just roll? Do we play with a mapper and a caller or do we ignore that suggestion? The only answer that would be consistent among several tables playing the same early edition of D&D would be: yes, no, both, neither, and it depends.

So, IMO, the only meaningful definition of OSR is general compatibility with early versions of D&D and AD&D.

This is a good conversation. 

Is there a ruleset that is prefered for making OSR games.  Are people using the OGL document?  OSIRIC? Old School Revival?

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 01:50:49 PM
This is a good conversation. 

Is there a ruleset that is prefered for making OSR games.  Are people using the OGL document?  OSIRIC? Old School Revival?

The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's.  I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets.  Nor is it that important anyway.

That being said, the single most popular OSR game seems to be Old School Essentials?

I would argue this, as it wouldn't be my choice of OSR rules.  I prefer to have races and classes separated, to have ascending armor class only, because armor shouldn't be rated like 18th century warships.  The whole "1st rate armor is AC-1, the best of the best" is dumb as hell to me.  Ascending AC is best, though I'm not even sure AC as a concept is actually good either.  I like armor that stops damage, not stops you from being hit in the first place.

So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.

The other is Star Adventurer, but that is because it goes a bit out of the norm and is a Star Wars game, not a fantasy elves and castles game.  It has a few features I like as well, such as force powers are skill checks, instead of the really silly use and forget magic system that even some other D&D style Star Wars games still try to shoehorn into their rules, usually badly.  Also, Star Adventurer has a table you roll on for your PC as you level up.  Roll on it twice, or if you really want something you can pick once instead of rolling twice.  That is a bit neat.

As you can see there is a common theme here.  They're all pretty much the same.  The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal. 

Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...

Quote from: Trond on January 07, 2023, 07:49:41 AM
Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...

The non-OGL OSR (and just OS) like Palladium Fantasy 1e look like they might be the only viable ones to carry the torch if Hasbro gets its way.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's.  I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets.  Nor is it that important anyway.

Is there an document with these rules for creating OSR games? Also, would this be effected by the crap Wizard is trying to pull?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.

I find Basic Fantasy boring and lacking options.  I played in a game using Basic Fantasy and I was just bored.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
As you can see there is a common theme here.  They're all pretty much the same.  The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal.

Cool thanks.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:21:11 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
The most common rules used to make an OSR styled game is probably the Basic D&D games from the early 1980's.  I think the Moldvay one is the top dog there, but I don't know the differences between the 3 or so variants of Basic D&D boxed sets.  Nor is it that important anyway.

Is there an document with these rules for creating OSR games? Also, would this be effected by the crap Wizard is trying to pull?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
So, my choices for OSR games right now, and ones I have actually bought and paid money for books, are Basic Fantasy RPG, which doesn't use races as a class, and only has ascending armor class, and is FREE to boot.

I find Basic Fantasy boring and lacking options.  I played in a game using Basic Fantasy and I was just bored.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2023, 01:20:24 AM
As you can see there is a common theme here.  They're all pretty much the same.  The differences between OSR games can actually be quite minimal.

Cool thanks.

Yes, it's called OSRIC.

No, not all the OSR games are the same, what exactly did you find lacking from Basic Fantasy? Options? There's a ton of free supplements on their website. And, with the GM's approval, you can pretty much import anything from 0DD to AD&D to Basic to BECMI with minimal work.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 08:43:27 AM

Quote from: Trond on January 07, 2023, 07:49:41 AM
Whenever "old school" comes up I like to remind people that other games, like Runequest, have also been around since the 70s. I realize that's not what people mean with OSR (it's more like OD&D revival) but still...

The non-OGL OSR (and just OS) like Palladium Fantasy 1e look like they might be the only viable ones to carry the torch if Hasbro gets its way.

The problem isn't with the OGL but with using the SRD IF WotC does try to close the previously open content from older editions (3.5 & 5e) to try and extract money and destroy the competition.

Without using the SRD the license IMHO is perfectly fine since it doesn't give WotC any rights over your shit.

For instance OpenD6 is under the OGL but doesn't use WotC's SRD.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:24:38 PM

Yes, it's called OSRIC.

No, not all the OSR games are the same

I have OSRIC and I like it and I will use its OGL to create some product.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:24:38 PMWhat exactly did you find lacking from Basic Fantasy? Options? There's a ton of free supplements on their website. And, with the GM's approval, you can pretty much import anything from 0DD to AD&D to Basic to BECMI with minimal work.

It's just boring and uninspired to me.  Didnt care of it.  Like OSRIC better.  I guess to each his own.

In short, OSR refers to Old School Renaissance.

The Renaissance refers to Gary Gygax's TSR editions of Dungeons & Dragons and the play-style those games engendered.

Role playing over roll playing
Sandbox over railroad
Lethality over powderpuff
Story emerges from play, it does not precede play.
Low fantasy over high fantasy

Now, how exactly those things manifest can vary between groups but the basic tenets are the same.