Quote from: YamoWhat are these "Five Elements", anyway?

Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, and Leeloo.

Leelo's my favorite.

My apologies, by the way, that this thread has turned into a kind of S. John interview between myself and John Morrow. I don't monopolize threads a'purpose, I promise.

On the other hand, it's been a good interview, and I love those

Quote from: S. John RossMy apologies, by the way, that this thread has turned into a kind of S. John interview between myself and John Morrow. I don't monopolize threads a'purpose, I promise.

On the other hand, it's been a good interview, and I love those

Well, we were staying vaguely on topic for this thread but I think we're moving beyond that now and have said what we both want to say about novelty and Aunt Beru.  Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Quote from: John MorrowWell, we were staying vaguely on topic for this thread but I think we're moving beyond that now and have said what we both want to say about novelty and Aunt Beru.

Except this one last thing: She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does. And she aches just like a woman ... but she breaks just like a little girl.

QuoteThanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Sure thing!

It's a somewhat amusing view from the sidelines for me.

I know where to find the five elements (albeit with quite a bit less discussion than satisfies my curiosity...), and revisted that info in order to refresh myself on them.

It was amusing for me to (re)discover that:
1) The five points were related by none other than John Morrow (I guess this dogging goes back a way, eh?)
2) I posted in that very discussion, though hadn't payed attention to John's post at that particular time.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad1) The five points were related by none other than John Morrow (I guess this dogging goes back a way, eh?)

I believe you can find two places where I related the full list and one where Bruce Baugh did (just so S. John Ross doesn't think I'm alone in letting them loose on the Internet), once you know what to look for.  The oldest one that I'm responsible for corresponds to a month or so after the convention we were discussing.  That was before I realized S. John Ross would rather not spread the list around, which I found out when I asked him to discuss it and even offered him money to write an article about it.  Since then, I've been keeping the full list to myself since it's his list, not mine, and he'd rather not spread it around the Internet.  At most, I'll talk about one Element in isolation, as I did here.

Quote from: SilverlionYour idea is a different set of the "same old stuff" btw. Just a different variant. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Of course it was, my point was that originality is overrated, posting something original would rather have undermined that.

That said, whether it appeals to you in particular or not is not quite the point, really what I was trying to say is pitch your game on what it is about, not what it is not about.  Saying it has no elves will sell nobody, saying it has elves might sell some people since it is a positive statement.

After that, whether the pitch works or not depends on the audience.  I pitched a while back a game about social climbing and con games in 1770s Naples, my group liked the idea, another might not have.  But I pitched it on what it was, scheming, intrigue, courtly seductions and midnight duels, not on what it wasn't - no magic, no demihumans etc.  The players went for it because of the positives, not because of what it didn't have.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere seems to be a very fine line between a fantasy setting that is "original" and one that is "too wierd to live" in the sense of being unplayable.

We know that people tend to say one thing and mean another about a lot of things: they claim they want healthier food, but they eat mcdonalds; they say that they don't like attack ads but we know those almost always work.

Could this be another one of those cases: Could it be that gamers who say they want "original" fantasy settings are actually meaning something else?

If so, what are they actually meaning?

RPGPundit

Meh.
Originality is not necessary for its own sake.
Beginning players often *need* to have tavern brawls, dungeon crawls, etc. before they can move on to bigger things.
After a while, though, people want to mix it up with fresh challenges.
As usual, it's really up to the GM to guage what his or her players are ready for. There is no set-in-stone answer.

And I agree that people go for options over restrictions any day. That's just common sense.

Quote from: John MorrowI believe you can find two places where I related the full list and one where Bruce Baugh did (just so S. John Ross doesn't think I'm alone in letting them loose on the Internet), once you know what to look for.

Heh. That would be another instance of our intersection on this issue. The MOST meaningful discussion I have had about this online was in a thread were we were batting about what S. John meant by... another one of the elements. You had posted one thing and in the post I found by Bruce, he said something a bit different, and someone quizzed me on where I found that and I pointed them at Bruce's post.

So, S. John, would it be too bold to ask why you are recalitrant on this issue? Are you afraid that you'll be publicizing a formula for would be authors to publish "more of the same old crap"?

I think that when most players say that they want something new and different, it likes someone who drinks Bud and wants a beer that's new and different, but their concept of new and different is Coors.   They want different but still easily recognizable.  A few players want something totally new but I've met more who start to back away if you go as far astray as D&D with a new magic system.

QuoteSo, S. John, would it be too bold to ask why you are recalitrant on this issue?

Not too bold, but my answer won't be very helpful or informative: I decided never to dicuss it in public again after Loyd Blankenship's response to the original article (I provided him with a copy when I first drafted it).

That was the core of it. In the years since then, I've seen much to reaffirm the decision.

QuoteAre you afraid that you'll be publicizing a formula for would be authors to publish "more of the same old crap"?

One set of labels wouldn't do anything to speed or slow that process, I think

Loyd and I still get on well despite it all; we occasionally meet for tacos al pastor (lots of onions on mine, please) and chat about our campaigns

Quality matters more than originality. Now if you can get original and quality in one package, exxxxcellent. If you have to choose, go with quality over originality.

As an example of quality being more important than originality, John Varley won a prominent SF writer's award for his short story "The persistance of vision" even tho it was just a redone version of H.G.Wells' short story "In the country of the blind" from 100 years earlier. it was a 'take off' and 'inspired by', but it was GOOD and had some twists so no one gave a damn it wasn't oiriginal.

Quote from: Dominus NoxQuality matters more than originality. Now if you can get original and quality in one package, exxxxcellent. If you have to choose, go with quality over originality.

I'd bring up the new Chronicles of Ramlar as a good example on this.  It has all the standard fantasy archetypes (plus a few twists), but does them exceedingly well, but goes and gets crapped on for not being original of a setting enough.  I don't think it's this as much as people see the old fantasy standbys and don't both and look to see a) how well-written it is, and b) that standard fantasy can be presented in a variety of different shapes and forms.

When I was in college, I worked in a pizza place.  It was customary with newbies joining our little workforce to initiate them into our order with a little test.  We would toss the pizza dough into the air and spin it to stretch it out and occasionally it would tear. (If you tossed it just right, you could guarantee a tear, while avoiding slinging it across the room, this is crucial.)

Newbies were told to go in the back and get "the dough repair kit."  They were sent back there time and again with different instructions each time as to the location.

As you can guess, there was no such thing as the "dough repair kit."

It is, of course, simply a variation on a theme that pervades human nature in every aspect of life.  It is the mythical search for the "thing that someone else knows that I don't."  

The truth is that there are no "silver bullets" that guarantee success.  You have, instead, the opinions (variously informed or not) as to what should consititute a success.  

Rather than expect the truth of decades of experience and professional level analysis of a turbulent marketplace to be handed to you on a silver platter (ala: The Five Surefire Ways to Guarantee Succeess in the RPG Industry), realize that you're all just in the midst of a giant Snipe Hunt.  

The secret is to find the truth for yourself.  

Quote from: VellorianThe truth is that there are no "silver bullets" that guarantee success.

Duh?

Duh.