There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.

Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.

You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.

I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.

You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am  not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.

I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.

I'm not familiar with the game. How would you say it glorified those aspects?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090025I'm not familiar with the game. How would you say it glorified those aspects?

It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.

Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable.  In my opinion.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.

Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.

You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.

I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.

You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am  not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.

I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.

okay a few things here...

1) Let's not confuse FICTIONAL GAMING with advocacy of ANY STRIPE.
2) The Mods are TBP *are* idiots.
3) They treat you worse than what? Some of us are *permabanned* for saying far less than this LOL.

That said... I'm interested in your justifications that FATAL <> Werewolf the Apocalypse.

And I'm more than happy to get out my trident, and slap on my horns and lawyers suit to play advocate general for his Infernal Majesty.

BY the conceits of the setting - Werewolf the Apocalypse *is* about the world being raped into oblivion physically, metaphysically, and any other way between/outside those two poles. There is *abominable* shit in Werewolf, by design. They are fighting the most hopeless and grotesque war within and without. They're nearly uncontrollable murder-machines that at one point spent *thousands* of years eating PEOPLE.

That you grew up around people with such siege mentalities is lamentable for sure. But surely you can see how a fictional group of monsters fighting evil often by being evil, there would be overlap in those tactics? I mean... the Garou in Werewolf (depending on your tribe) *are* into breed-purity. That *is* one of the conceits of the game. It's a freakin stat.

So aside from how the shitty Mods at TBP treat you - they treat *everyone* like dogshit. The conceits of Werewolf are pretty much just kinda obvious. Don't you think this sounds a little bit like Doc Sammy's rants from the other side of the coin?

Edit: I also confess that I don't look at FATAL as an actual game. I look at it and laugh my ass off.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090027It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.

Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable.  In my opinion.

Okay I'm going to have to take a look at my copy... so don't hold me to my next opinion... because it's been years since I looked at it...

BUT... as I recall, the Garou *do* look at themselves, generally speaking, as a different species. Though I'm pretty sure the Tribes treat their kinfolk differently. Culturally acceptable to mistreat them, I guess from a human standpoint... but if you're a Garou that historically, predated upon humans for *thousands of years* - I suspect the "feel" is they treat their Kinfolk like useful cattle at worst.

They *do* need their kinfolk after all.

Edit: yeah it says right here at the beginning: kinfolk occupy a range of positions in Garou society from beloved mates and siblings to to little more than breeding stock and grunt soldiers in the war against the Wyrm.

From the Garou perspective those positions vary wildly depending on the tribe. In fact in the book/game there are some HUGE downsides to mistreating your kinfolk as a general practice... namely you're less likely to get more Garou.

One could argue that the goals of the creators were markedly different. The FATAL authors were excitedly puerile in their descriptions, discussion of the game and online presence (IIRC). The rape fantasies in FATAL were baked in and glaringly white-hetero ignorance fueled. (Look mom! Rape Culture!)

I can't speak for the Werewolf authors, but there could be a compelling reason to explore these themes. Especially if you are into body horror/mutant horror like The Hills Have Eyes. If the goal was to create a game that terrifies the participants, the genre is certainly a valid horror genre.

I could also see the Werewolf authors having some contempt for the FATAL authors for this very reason. It's much different to create something as an homage to a genre vs. the whole "girls should be subservient to men and do everything I want and have sex at my command so let's make a game where I can fantasize about that."

In both cases however, I believe the fantasies are harmless. Having kinky fantasies about rape is actually common; after reading some erotic fantasy... most of these fantasties bear little resemblance to the violence of actual rape. They are more quid-pro-quo, BDSM or Hard Choices vs. aggravated assault. Legally and morally they are easily "wrong" in any assessment of the acts but I think people are willing to look past that for something that exists only in their imagination. Afterall, the taboo nature of the fiction is part of the turn-on.

It's unfortunate that people are so fucking cruel and critical of each other. The RPG space has become a minefield of butthurt and outrage. Both these works should be able to exist and be played/patronized by those who appreciate them. For those who don't? It is EASY to find anything else you might want...

I simply think this.  The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1090033I simply think this.  The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.

yep. I think this is portrayed pretty much throughout the game including in the Kinfolk book, (who in my opinion have it even more fucked up because they're potentially aware of all the actual horrors the Garou face and can do far less than their furry cousins). The Werewolf tribes fucked up from the get-go in their history. They're going to lose. The whole point of the game is to fight the inevitable and *maybe* you can make a difference.

How you go about doing that - is the game.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but it's a bunch of monsters doing monstrous things?

(I realize World of Darkness is about anti-heroic monsters, but they're still monsters right?)

Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place?  If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature.  If my memory is correct that is.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090037Forgive me for my ignorance, but it's a bunch of monsters doing monstrous things?

(I realize World of Darkness is about anti-heroic monsters, but they're still monsters right?)

Yep. It's all very contextual of course. But the original WoD games generally were pretty good at setting the tone of what was expected. At no point after first contact with Werewolf the Apocalypse- even with their "nice tribes" did I *ever* not realize that the Garou were horrifying killing machines. That's what I liked about it.

If you wanna play sexytime-killers - you can play Vampire. If you want to go full-blown "the world is ending and we're going to slaughtercate our foes with wild-abandon on the way down every single night... Werewolf is your ticket to ride. I think the sobering aspects of Werewolf, all gore-porn aside, are the metaphysical aspects of the game that really contrasts the hyperviolent conceits of the game.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place?  If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature.  If my memory is correct that is.

Yeah but there are tons of stupid NPC's in all the WoD splats. It makes sense for there to be some tree-hugging vegetarian Garou that is in the Green Party, playing hackey-sack and smelling like patchouli...  but the game makes fun of that via the opinions of the other tribes.

Because clearly that kinda shit ain't going down in the Shadow Lord, Get of Fenris, tribes. Hell most of the other Tribes outside of the Hippies of Gaia.

Quote from: tenbones;1090029okay a few things here...
1) Let's not confuse FICTIONAL GAMING with advocacy of ANY STRIPE.

Pretty much this.

And it's true Garou is an horror game about furry humans doing ultra-violent things to unspeakably vicious abominations intent of defiling the world. There are no ways to keep your paws clean in this game.

And it's a blast to play when you want to blow off some steam.

Besides that, the Garou society is painted as a tribal world united by a common cause. Tribal in the sense of "I live by the rules of my tribe, and you live by the rules of your tribe. My Tribe is the best tribe, so if your Tribe tells you to do moronic things like mistreating your Kinfolk, it's because yours is a Tribe of morons. As long as you fight our common adversary, I don't care. Be a pack of morons !"

Incidentally, our ancestors have lived a long time in this tribal fashion, and it even worked for them (or we wouldn't be there, would we ? :-).

And I thought I had major hangups with the World of Darkness....

The ironic part of this is that now the RPGnet commissars would hate on Teletubbies if it had the White Wolf logo on it but stuff from Onyx Path is fine and dandy in their eyes, because their fucked up shit is "woke" and not "edgy" or "fun"

Darrin, do yourself a favor and do NOT read Beast: The Primordial.

It's a game where you play as abusive SJW predators and it was written by Matthew "Black Hat Matt" MacFarland and David "Olivia" Hill, both are Neo-Communists and violent fanatics.

"Black Hat Matt" is a notorious pedophile/ephebophile who has raped multiple women (mostly minors) while David "Olivia" Hill is a disgusting autogynephile and an identity opportunist who has expressed abhorrent Anarcho-Communist views as well as Anti-American and Anti-Japanese statements (despite being an American citizen living in Japan) and Hill is also a notorious racist left-wing bigot who has made heinous racist statements against Whites, Japanese, South Koreans, and Jews.

These are the people that RPGnet consider to be heroic, and neither of them were banned until things got so bad that they became a liability. RPGnet and Onyx Path covered up Black Hat Matt's sexual predator bullshit for years and David "Olivia" Hill only got banned because his crusade against Nu-White Wolf led to him doxing Matthew Dawkins (who is also a leftist but is a decent human being) simply because he dared to go work with a "problematic" company.

From what I understand, RPGnet only banned Hill because his actions were so out of hand that they possibly threatened Onyx Path's licensing deals with Paradox and so RPGnet had to cover their asses.

Doc Sammy,

I was a follower of Chill 3rd Edition. And I was actually a backer of the Undead Sourcebook when the stuff about Matt went public.

I posted to TBP that I was having moral issues. And would be backing away from Growling Door Games because of that stuff coming out. And I got all claws out shredded by a TBP mod for it. Because they were friends with both of the MacFarlands. And no, I never got an apology for it. Because the TBP mods are that self-righteous.

And don't worry. I have no interest in picking up or looking at anything else to come from any version of White Wolf or Onyx Path. They burnt their bridges with me a long time ago.