Quote from: droogIt may be that a certain amount of orientalism is inevitable among Western gamers. Even you and I, John, are one step removed from actual life in an Asian society.

It takes hard work to free yourself from assumptions embedded in your culture. It's always tempting to construct the Other.

While I might agree in principle, there's a huge difference in degree between stuff like what was in GURPS Fantasy and the reasonable stuff in games.  

See, stuff like the World of Warcraft orc thing -- that sounds really cool!  It doesn't take that much effort to at least convey that racial stereotypes are wrong, and to make people think a little bit about the issues.  My point is that first bit of effort goes a long way.

I think we're in agreement. I guess I just want to emphasise that it is hard work, and ongoing. Once you start investigating the discourse of colonialism it never ends.

Quote from: droogI think we're in agreement. I guess I just want to emphasise that it is hard work, and ongoing.

That's sorta where I'm at.  Issues like the ones under discussion in this thread aren't things I can fully solve, only grapple with.

On orcs:  I'm almost constantly working through my own treatment of orcs in gaming.  One of my alltime favorite PCs was a vile half-orc who hated both orcs and humans, because he hated himself and his wretched existence as an outsider from both societies.  I don't play the kind of games where you push those issues front and center, but that internal dynamic informed pretty much every decision the character made.

Its pretty cool how my Wednesday DM is challenging past treatment of orcs.  One large contingent of orcs we fight is significantly more refined and civilized than the PCs and the general reaction, especially my own, is to hate them more than usual.  These same civilized orcs are also extremely racist, treating other species with utter contempt and constantly referring to us as 'mere slave things'.  In other words, their treatment of humans is a smoky mirror of typical PC treatment of orcs.  This conflict gives the campaign a lot of oomph.

I did kind of the same thing in my D&D setting that I run. The Orcs, like the Elves, are genetically similar, their makeup coerced via breeding programs designed by the ancient lizardpeople empire. It wasn't really magic, just generations of eugenics, pretty much.

The Orcs were semi-nomadic ranchers/hunters before the Human raiders landed. Lacking a centralized organization, they fought pretty well, but after decades of war with the elves, they lost and were a subjugated nation. Imperial propaganda depicts Orcs as the "greenskin" (even though it's more of an olive-colored skin tone) and brutal. The archtype of C/E. In reality, though they're guilty of raiding, killing, and wartime atrocities, they're no worse then the Empire. They've got a culture, their own gods, ect. And, one tribe is not exactly the same as another, but Imperial citizens can rarely tell the tribe that raided them last week from the tribe that's rolling in to trade winter furs for farmed grain.

The Elves, on the other hand, are also C/N (the Orcs default alignment). Decadent and brutal, they have a great propaganda machine, so citizens tend to romantisize them more. Because they were farther away then the Orcs, they were never totally subjugated, so they're the subject of revulsion and awe.

I've been trying to get away from the 'noble savage' and 'mystic oriental' archtypes that're common, so my setting is kind of a deconstructed 'regular' D&D setting. It's kind of funny, because I deconstructed a lot of the game's assumptions before I ever knew what 'deconstruction' even was.

Quote from: SettembriniThe stupidmost term evolving from PC-Speak. What will a PC-boy do when he is in South Africa, and wants to fight for the rights of the Blacks? What term will he use?

You're ignoring or missing the fact that the term originated not from a "politically correct" attempt to neutralise and assimilate black identity, but rather from a cultural movement among black Americans to elevate and emphasise the particular identity and history of blacks in the United States.  It may have been a bit of a philosophical and political mis-step (a point that remains under debate to this day), but it's disingenuous to claim that the term "African-American" was ever intended to apply to a native* of any nation other than the United States (and perhaps Canada).

See? This is why I loathe the term "political correctness".  It's applied too liberally to situations where the phrase "something I don't really understand" could be better used.

!i!

[*Edit: Yes, yes.  A dubious term in and of itself.]

Quote from: droogOnce you start investigating the discourse of colonialism it never ends.

What a load of self-confirming bunk.  This is, by the way, why people utterly despise deconstructionists, and why the average man distrusts academia.

RPGPundit

Hyperbole editor on:

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat a load of self-confirming bunk.  This is, by the way, why [some] people utterly despise deconstructionists, and why [some] average [men] distrust academia.

Ahh.  That's better.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat a load of self-confirming bunk.  This is, by the way, why people utterly despise deconstructionists, and why the average man distrusts academia.

I can't help it if your political development is incomplete.

Quote from: droogI can't help it if your political development is incomplete.

How clever. Oh, here's a witty rejoinder for you: You're a pretentious cunt.

And you ironically mistake your spineless inability to hold any convictions with some kind of universal truth.

RPGPundit

Ooooooooooo.

Quote from: Ian Absentianative*

[*Edit: Yes, yes.  A dubious term in and of itself.]

Why is "native" a dubious term? I consider myself a native of the USA. My ancestors might not have been, but I was born into this land and culture, which IMO makes me a native. If that's not what "native" means, then what does it mean and who does it apply to? If, just because my forbears were not native to the USA, I am not native either, then how could "native-americans" be considered "natives" when their forbears were not native to this land and culture either?

To be fair, all the "native-americans" I have personally known have not liked being called "native-americans". When referring to my friend Bill's ethnicity, we always used the term "Lakota", because I am as much a "native-american" as he is. None of this is the fault of the term "native" though, but the misuse of the term by PC proponents.

Quote from: SigmundWhy is "native" a dubious term?

Okay, "contentious" would have been a better choice.  I meant "dubious" in the sense of "cast into doubt" or "of unsettled opinion".  It's a matter of perspective, and your response rather underscores the problem of its use in this context -- there are differing opinions on how, when, and whether it's appropriate.

If it's any consolation, I stand largely with you on the use of "native", particularly in the context in which I used it in my previous post.  

!i!

Never mind.  Merry Christmas, for those who partake.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHyperbole editor on:Ahh.  That's better.

!i!

Much better then I could have done.
Props.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, "contentious" would have been a better choice.  I meant "dubious" in the sense of "cast into doubt" or "of unsettled opinion".  It's a matter of perspective, and your response rather underscores the problem of its use in this context -- there are differing opinions on how, when, and whether it's appropriate.

If it's any consolation, I stand largely with you on the use of "native", particularly in the context in which I used it in my previous post.  

!i!

Ah, ok.