Quote from: SettembriniThe stupidmost term evolving from PC-Speak. What will a PC-boy do when he is in South Africa, and wants to fight for the rights of the Blacks? What term will he use?

I don't know what PC-boy would do.  Probably they differ.  

Personally, I'd say "black".  

And, yeah, "African American" is a pretty clunky term.  But it's tricky.  There are black-skinned people who aren't African-American or African-anything; and there are African-Americans who aren't very black-skinned.  When I talk about The Birth of a Nation, at least, I was talking specifically about African Americans so it seemed appropriate to use the term.  And to be fair, there are plenty of other clunky racial terms -- like "Caucasian".  (when people who are actually from the Caucasus are likely to not be called Caucasian.)  

The term seems to be the default for most African-Americans to use for themselves.  In general, I prefer to use a people's term for themselves.  So I'll use "Inuit" rather than "Eskimo", for example.

QuoteAnd, yeah, "African American" is a pretty clunky term. But it's tricky. There are black-skinned people who aren't African-American or African-anything; and there are African-Americans who aren't very black-skinned.

I see we opine alike.

Quote from: jhkimSo, for example, if you want to play in a game where you're heroically fighting off the Yellow Peril and the insidious plots of Fu Manchu, then go do it.  It's a free country.  However, I won't join your game, and I'll probably have a few words of free speech to say about what I think of it.

To which I say: awesome.  I want to hear what you have to say.

I've never run a campaign where fighting Fu Manchu was the point of the whole deal, but I did once have a villainous wu jen/ninja called Doctor Wu make trouble for a few sessions in an old Greyhawk campaign.  The reaction at the table wasn't so much "Aiee!  The Yellow Peril incarnate!" but more "Crap!  Jeff has a copy of Oriental Adventures and we don't.  We have no idea what this guy is capable of!"  But without ever really saying it out loud, my goal was to invoke some of that Fu Manchu mojo.  Within the scope of the campaign he wasn't my attempt to comment on east/west relations or anything like that.  His function was pretty much that of a standard evil wizard but with a slightly different beard and class abilities that the players didn't have memorized.

What do you think of a guy like Doctor Wu?  Is he inherently racist as a construct?  Would there be anything that I could do to make Doctor Wu not be a racist charicature?

I would note that the kind of games I run involve me making very few NPCs who aren't foes of the PCs.  If it weren't for Doctor Wu that campaign would have had no asian NPCs whatsoever.  I don't know if that matters to your analysis or not, but there it is.

Quote from: SettembriniThe stupidmost term evolving from PC-Speak. What will a PC-boy do when he is in South Africa, and wants to fight for the rights of the Blacks? What term will he use?
.

African-African?

RPGPundit

In my career I've had to sit in many seminars and classes on equal opportunity, ethics, racism, sexual harassment and the like.  At one point I could teach them in my sleep, based on the amount of shit that I'd had fed to me on the topics.

One of the few that stand out was when one of the managers, a great guy, well respected, etc... was giving the class.  His comment?

"I am not an African American. I am American. I have never been to Africa, I ain't got shit to do with Africa."

Okay, I paraphrase.  His point? He found the term African American distasteful and personally offensive because it cheapened his Americanism.

Never mind that the term was originally promulgated by the black community... One mans offensive is another's badge of honor sometimes.

Quote from: SosthenesHaven't seen the movie, so I can't tell you. I'm guessing it's the usual racist KKK stuff. I don't think _focusing_ on this will be worthwile in a role-playing game. Playing in a world where this is the common view and your characters might think that way, although this isn't the central point of the adventures is definitely possible though. Otherwise you couldn't play a historic campaign.

On the other hand, some DitV "adventures" might not be so far away and I've seen backgrounds where the treatment of orcs is worse than most real world racism. When you have absolute alignments, apparently you're allowed to do all kinds of crap.

Yanno, I just gotta get this off my chest, but quite frankly I find the whole basic assumptions behind DitV utterly revolting.  

The whole fucked up theology of sin going on there is so amazingly backwards and disturbing that it scares me to think people actually think of it as a game.  

It's basically like making a game out of witch trials and inqusitions, with the players doing the executions.  It's appaling.

Quote from: jrientsWhat do you think of a guy like Doctor Wu?  Is he inherently racist as a construct?  Would there be anything that I could do to make Doctor Wu not be a racist charicature?

I would note that the kind of games I run involve me making very few NPCs who aren't foes of the PCs.  If it weren't for Doctor Wu that campaign would have had no asian NPCs whatsoever.  I don't know if that matters to your analysis or not, but there it is.

It's hard to tell what I would think from just a sentence on the concept.  If it's a one-time thing and just that one character, then I doubt it would affect my view of the campaign as a whole.  I'd probably groan and roll my eyes a little if it really was evoking a Fu Manchu vibe.  

I don't think having an Asian villain is inherently racist.  The racist part would be if the concept of Asian you portrayed came from a racist white writer's concept of Asians.  Offhand, I do wince at the mixing of pseudo-Chinese (Fu Manchu vibe and the Wu Jen class) and Japanese (Ninja class) in there.  To someone whose father grew up under Japanese occupation, it's a bit like having a multiclass Jewish Cabalist / Teutonic Storm Trooper villain.  Either concept alone seems like a potentially fine villain, but putting the two together seems wonky.  

As for things which you could do, I'd prefer some sort of breaking of stereotype.  For example, since you were pulling him in to be surprising to the players, you could have an unpredictable multiclass like a Wu Jen / Bard or somesuch.

QuoteOffhand, I do wince at the mixing of pseudo-Chinese (Fu Manchu vibe and the Wu Jen class) and Japanese (Ninja class) in there.

The original Oriental Adventures rules is chock full of Japanese/Chinese smash-ups like that.  Since 'wu jen' was a new term to me from that book, I wouldn't have been able to have told you if it was Japanese, Chinese, or what.  Nowadays I'm a little less dunder-headed.

It may be that a certain amount of orientalism is inevitable among Western gamers. Even you and I, John, are one step removed from actual life in an Asian society.

It takes hard work to free yourself from assumptions embedded in your culture. It's always tempting to construct the Other.

Quote from: J ArcaneYanno, I just gotta get this off my chest, but quite frankly I find the whole basic assumptions behind DitV utterly revolting.  

The whole fucked up theology of sin going on there is so amazingly backwards and disturbing that it scares me to think people actually think of it as a game.  

It's basically like making a game out of witch trials and inqusitions, with the players doing the executions.  It's appaling.

I find this very interesting, and kind of (very) relevent to the discussion at hand. Although I don't share your views on the game you mentioned, I think your views is part of the meat of this discussion. What some folks find offensive and how others don't.

Good post J Arcane

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI find this very interesting, and kind of (very) relevent to the discussion at hand. Although I don't share your views on the game you mentioned, I think your views is part of the meat of this discussion. What some folks find offensive and how others don't.

Good post J Arcane

Regards,
David R

As another comment to the same post, you mentioned the common treatment of Orcs in fantasy games.  

I found it interesting because the Warcraft guys actually used that to turn their Orcs into sympathetic characters.  The humans had actually rounded them up into concentration camps after Warcraft II, so the openign to the third game was you leading them to freedom.

It was a wierd, but kind of nifty little parallel and twist on the whole cliche, I thought.

Quote from: J ArcaneI found it interesting because the Warcraft guys actually used that to turn their Orcs into sympathetic characters.  The humans had actually rounded them up into concentration camps after Warcraft II, so the openign to the third game was you leading them to freedom.

Yeah, rather subtle.
I always thought the Warcraft orcs were a rather bad mixture of the Warhammer orkz combined with the old and tired "noble savage" crap.

Quote from: SosthenesYeah, rather subtle.
I always thought the Warcraft orcs were a rather bad mixture of the Warhammer orkz combined with the old and tired "noble savage" crap.

So... um... what about MY orcs?

:cool:

Quote from: J ArcaneAs another comment to the same post, you mentioned the common treatment of Orcs in fantasy games.  

It wasn't me But yeah, I get where you are going with this.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SosthenesYeah, rather subtle.
I always thought the Warcraft orcs were a rather bad mixture of the Warhammer orkz combined with the old and tired "noble savage" crap.

Well, in a way, that's exactly what they are.  The pre WCIII Orcs were basically Warhammer orkz all the way.  The original Warcraft was intended to be an actual Warhammer game, but GW had no interest so they repurposed it enoguh to not get sued and went ahead with their on game.

It wasn't really until Warcraft III that the universe started evolving into sometihng of it's own, and the whole back story about the burning Legion corrupting the Orcs, and their subsequent redemption in the form of their potrayal in that game was a big part of this.

Personally, I like it.  I like Warcraft's Orcs, they're my favorite race in the games, and have been since the first game.  

But I also like it because it's part of one of my favorite themes in WoW, that there is no real clear "good guy" and "bad guy" with the Horde and the Alliance.  There's evil bastards, and noble heroes both in all the races.  Even with the Undead, there's still a lot of them that just want to be left alone to live in piece, and some even that are helping to fight back the real menace, the Scourge.  Of course, there's also the Royal Apothecary Society, which is trying to develop a new plague that will wipe out all life on Azeroth.  

It makes for a really cool, open setting to me.  There's room for good guys and bad guys on all sides, but still conflict between them.  It's brilliant.  

But as you point out, there's definitely tones of racial pastiche involved in the Warcraft world.  Fuck, look at the Tauren.  Or the Pandaren.  You could even have some luck arguing that the Goblins are just a Jewish stereotype, though I think it'd say as much about the person arguing that as it would the game.  

So it goes.  I've seen a hell of a lot worse than Warcraft, especially in the world of video games.