Quote from: GamerDude;477286NOTE: He said "every RPG I've Played" and "40K is the only game I've come across".  I don't think a fair question honestly based on a gamer's personal experience should get a severe beating.  My opinion of course.

Now, my concept for a game where your actions affect everything and simultaneous actions are just that.

The game system I've been working on this is called "Fluid Imitative"......

I tried to keep this short. If anyone has interest I can start a new thread and explain in more detail.

That seems similar to LV's system as pointed to in post 14.
I haven't played a game like that although it's effectly a tick system and a few others from Snapshot down have done it.

I might take a good look at that I might even mod my current game to run that way.
What do you use to track the timings. I imagine it woudl make a great Ipad App. where players just pick their actions and the app applies the start and duration to the time line which rolls up as time moves forward.

Just thinking how you would run that on a table cos visibility of the actions and the whole of the timeline woudl be key. Also if you were to have actions that had unknown durations how do you track those?

I am curious as I think the system would be great and i can see some great effects like taking damage extends the duration of your current action but I would be concerned about book-keeping and how do you stop the guy with a massive damage bonus and a small weapon (what I call the tyrany of darts) from dominating the game?

Quote from: The Traveller;477224This is interesting, but I'm not sure how it would work at the table - what happens if everyone chooses to slow down their place in the initiative to gain a bonus? Do they all bottom out in the same position as they started out in, but with maximum bonuses? If so why doesn't everyone do this all the time?

The NPCs cannot change their initiative, and don't roll 'til the PCs have finished changing. If everyone in the party goes last, the NPCs get to whale on them and maybe take a couple PCs down. Moving your initiative is a risk, and it is as often shifted forward to get an early, rushed strike as it is delayed to get a slow, powerful one. If you are going late in the round anyway, there is little risk to moving to go last, but little benefit too.

QuoteDoes the system balance to account for strategic advantages you gain by going last anyway, in that everyone else has played their hand?

There are tactical advantages to going early as well as late. It's self-balancing. I have been running - and selling - games using some version of this system since 2003, and the vast majority of moves are small, to gain a small advantage, or to compensate for wounds.

QuoteAlso I assume the bonuses and penalties are applied to every action in that round regardless of what those actions are, what's to stop PCs starting a fistfight while the wizard attempts a particularly difficult spell they needed to cast anyway, giving him a bonus purely by dint of being involved in a combat?

Unless the wizard is actually in combat himself, he isn't in initiative. He's sitting in a chair, perusing his old tome. If he *is* in combat, he'd better not be diddling with some difficult spell.

QuoteI'm not criticising, just genuinely curious whether the system addresses these issues.

The system does, but this is not the system, just a minor aspect of it. It's like looking at a plane's landing gear and thinking "How would this ever *fly*?"



-clash

Quote from: jibbajibba;477288That seems similar to LV's system as pointed to in post 14.
I haven't played a game like that although it's effectly a tick system and a few others from Snapshot down have done it.

I might take a good look at that I might even mod my current game to run that way.

I went back and re-read that... no they are rolling imitative all the time although I can't tell how this "no time block" thing works. (sorry I have extremely dry eyes and the font on the site is just way too 'fancy' for me to handle without straining).

QuoteWhat do you use to track the timings. I imagine it woudl make a great Ipad App. where players just pick their actions and the app applies the start and duration to the time line which rolls up as time moves forward.

I have apps running on java (not by me) which handle this easily.  I uses the basic "1 Second" intervals.  

QuoteJust thinking how you would run that on a table cos visibility of the actions and the whole of the timeline woudl be key. Also if you were to have actions that had unknown durations how do you track those?

For AD&D I had made my own hand drawn square grid that I taped under a 4'x8' sheet of Plexiglas. At one end I had drawn four rows of 10 squares, each square numbered inside it. The rows were (top to bottom) Segments, Rounds, Turns, Turns x10.  A player at that end would handle marking off (or clearing) the segments/rounds as I called them off.

Personally I have a standard clip-board, clear acrylic. On the back I have carefully taped on a document protector with the strip for the holes cut off. When I am playing my character sheet goes in the pocket, when GMing I have quadrule graph paper in it. That's what I make notes on, track actions timing etc.

Paizo makes a magnetic dry erase board that has magnets you can write on allowing you to move them - but it's set up for D&D so I would need to make my own.

QuoteI am curious as I think the system would be great and i can see some great effects like taking damage extends the duration of your current action but I would be concerned about book-keeping and how do you stop the guy with a massive damage bonus and a small weapon (what I call the tyrany of darts) from dominating the game?

It's called "how much can you do in a second?"  I've got many kinks worked out most of it is like any RPG, how do you handle the bookkeeping.

Quote from: GamerDude;477319I went back and re-read that... no they are rolling imitative all the time although I can't tell how this "no time block" thing works. (sorry I have extremely dry eyes and the font on the site is just way too 'fancy' for me to handle without straining).

 I have apps running on java (not by me) which handle this easily.  I uses the basic "1 Second" intervals.  

For AD&D I had made my own hand drawn square grid that I taped under a 4'x8' sheet of Plexiglas. At one end I had drawn four rows of 10 squares, each square numbered inside it. The rows were (top to bottom) Segments, Rounds, Turns, Turns x10.  A player at that end would handle marking off (or clearing) the segments/rounds as I called them off.

Personally I have a standard clip-board, clear acrylic. On the back I have carefully taped on a document protector with the strip for the holes cut off. When I am playing my character sheet goes in the pocket, when GMing I have quadrule graph paper in it. That's what I make notes on, track actions timing etc.

Paizo makes a magnetic dry erase board that has magnets you can write on allowing you to move them - but it's set up for D&D so I would need to make my own.
It's called "how much can you do in a second?"  I've got many kinks worked out most of it is like any RPG, how do you handle the bookkeeping.

See ideally you would want task proforma's that were alrerady built for , attack, cast a 4th level spell etc then you coudl lay them on the chart and you would know at anypoint what tasks were in progress etc. that is why an Ipad app would be the easiest.
I might nick the premise, although a second is actually a bit long. I can hit you 3 times in a second and I am a balding middle aged IT manager and a trained professional cop can put a 2 shot group into a target in less than 1/2 a second. However as a mechanic I think its sound and would fix an issue I have in my current game so thanks

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;477235

I notice that isn't a RPG cover.

So, "nothing" seems to be the answer here.

Nice troll, BNG.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;477324I notice that isn't a RPG cover.

My dog ate my homework.

Quote from: jibbajibba;477092A system I used in a CCG I built that would easily convert to an RPG was that initiaitve stayed withte h side that dealt damage.

CCG mechanics have a lot of crossover potential IMO, particularly the language used by those designers in writing the rules. CCG rules have to be explained precisely due to interrupt and timing mechanisms and I think rpg writers can learn a lot from them.

Quote from: jibbajibba;477322See ideally you would want task proforma's that were alrerady built for , attack, cast a 4th level spell etc then you coudl lay them on the chart and you would know at anypoint what tasks were in progress etc. that is why an Ipad app would be the easiest.

QuoteI might nick the premise, although a second is actually a bit long. I can hit you 3 times in a second and I am a balding middle aged IT manager and a trained professional cop can put a 2 shot group into a target in less than 1/2 a second. However as a mechanic I think its sound and would fix an issue I have in my current game so thanks

ok, the first.. without training I doubt it.. but I won't argue the point since I can't prove or disprove.

The second? that is SKILL, with the gun out, and it's an automatic pistol round in the chamber and pointed at the target and all you have to do is pull the trigger twice.

But, please understand this. ALL RPG systems are at best crude simulations of reality. It's a balance between realism and a smooth running game. As long as everyone is operating under the exact same rules, mechanics - then it *does* *not* *matter* how close to reality in every tiny facet.

In my system, double action revolvers and semi-automatic pistols/rifles will fire once per second without any negatives. (Fire from the hip/as it's pulled from the holster gets negatives).

I am going for simplicity, some level of realism, eliminating the issue of trying to accomplish multiple actions in a single "round", without the round being so small it is ridiculously small, etc.

OF course if you want your version to have multiple actions in a round, different size round etc. that's fine it's your game. I'm just explaining what I've been working on.

Quote from: GamerDude;477356

Quote from: jibbajibba;477322See ideally you would want task proformas that were alrerady built for , attack, cast a 4th level spell etc then you could lay them on the chart and you would know at any point what tasks were in progress etc. that is why an Ipad app would be the easiest.

 ok, the first.. without training I doubt it.. but I won't argue the point since I can't prove or disprove.

The second? that is SKILL, with the gun out, and it's an automatic pistol round in the chamber and pointed at the target and all you have to do is pull the trigger twice.

But, please understand this. ALL RPG systems are at best crude simulations of reality. It's a balance between realism and a smooth running game. As long as everyone is operating under the exact same rules, mechanics - then it *does* *not* *matter* how close to reality in every tiny facet.

In my system, double action revolvers and semi-automatic pistols/rifles will fire once per second without any negatives. (Fire from the hip/as it's pulled from the holster gets negatives).

I am going for simplicity, some level of realism, eliminating the issue of trying to accomplish multiple actions in a single "round", without the round being so small it is ridiculously small, etc.

OF course if you want your version to have multiple actions in a round, different size round etc. that's fine it's your game. I'm just explaining what I've been working on.

Totally get you and its a usable system by any standards. I was just being a pedant and I apologise.
The only reason it might be off importance would be for comparative actions. So Dave holds off the bandits as Frank tries to jemmy open the entrance to the old mine, or Bob engages the goblins whilst Sara areosolizes the serum. But I agree that even that is something of a moot point.
Top Secret used 1 second combat rounds and I didn't complain about that, although I had just come from D&D's 1 minute rounds

I will take it away and see what I can make of it. My only concern is that it might end up moving as glacially slowly as Car Wars used to. Car Wars had 1 second rounds divided into 10 segments and you ran actions segment by segment. It was really the only way to handle a game where 2 opponents were moving on different vectors in excess of 50 miles an hour across a crowded city scape, but it was really slow.

(Oh and I have been doing martial arts, off and on, for 30 years ... )

Quote from: GamerDude;477356I am going for simplicity, some level of realism, eliminating the issue of trying to accomplish multiple actions in a single "round", without the round being so small it is ridiculously small, etc.

This is where the tick based systems really shine though, they do away with the "round" entirely. I've even managed to pretty much remove simultaneous actions by the simple expedient of just stacking the chips if more than one person is on a segment - first in, first out, the chip on the bottom of the heap goes first.

Still I mean the level of approximation each group is comfortable with is different of course.

I think the proof of the pudding for realism arguments in favor of tick-based systems or "a cop can hit a target twice in a second" is whether combats based on these generally take a realistic amount of time.

Quote from: GamerDude;477170WRONG!

The most popular etc etc game up through the late 1990's had you roll initiative every round.

The most popular etc. etc. game from about 1999/2000 till now had you roll initiative ONCE at the start of combat.

And trust me, I spent three years working for WotC teaching D&D 3rd ed and 4th ed at game stores/conventions.  I know how initiative works in the game.

Dude, you are failing to read me.  I have been saying from the start that D20 HAS ONE ROLL INITIATIVE.  You keep correcting me by saying the exact same fucking thing I'm saying.

Ghost: "no game but 40k has one roll initiative"
Me: "D20 has one-roll initiative"
You: "no it doesn't! In D20 you only roll once, at the start of combat!"
Me: "Yes, exactly, one-roll initiative".
You: "No, trust me, I know what I'm saying here, you only roll once at the start of each combat in D20"
Me: "READ WHAT IM SAYING YOU FUCKING TOOL".

RPGPundit

Also, you said "last decade" and he keeps on talking about the 90's as if that was what you were referring to.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;477570Also, you said "last decade" and he keeps on talking about the 90's as if that was what you were referring to.

Maybe he's speaking to us through a time warp?

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmice;477317The NPCs cannot change their initiative, and don't roll 'til the PCs have finished changing. If everyone in the party goes last, the NPCs get to whale on them and maybe take a couple PCs down. Moving your initiative is a risk, and it is as often shifted forward to get an early, rushed strike as it is delayed to get a slow, powerful one. If you are going late in the round anyway, there is little risk to moving to go last, but little benefit too.

As a player in Clash's Starcluster 3 irc game, I can testify to the fact that this initiative style adds to the tension and excitement of combat, and doesn't cause all the players to go last. The combat is pretty gritty, and the times I've changed my initiative, it's almost always been towards getting in the first shot at a penalty, cuz hits can take ya down. Usually I change only enough to get that first hit in to minimize the penalty.