Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 14, 2025, 09:46:37 AMAnyway, the reason why the association was made between orcs and black folks by the woke is because they believe that all fictional monsters are actually caricatures of non-white and non-straight people. Under their belief system, monsters are created as a way to stigmatize and demonize minorities. This is obviously nonsensical, as monsters like the pishtaco are literally based on fears of being exploited by white colonizers!

  Another part of their reasoning works as following:

  1. Minorities have sometimes been described in monstrous terms by racists;
  2. Ergo, anything being described as monstrous is racist, adjacent to racism, or otherwise suspect.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 14, 2025, 10:17:56 AMAnother part of their reasoning works as following:

  1. Minorities have sometimes been described in monstrous terms by racists;
  2. Ergo, anything being described as monstrous is racist, adjacent to racism, or otherwise suspect.

I've noticed this too. For example, there's this claim going around that the classic gothic vampire tales are all metaphors for homosexuality. Dracula, Carmilla, Vardalek, Ruthven, etc are actually gay and the stories are about how they're ostracized and demonized by straights. This is obviously problematic, as these stories depict vampires as monsters who physically suck the life out of their victims. If any of the authors were gay and subliminally wrote this into their work, then they clearly had issues. I've always found the association between vampirism and homosexuality offensive because it reads exactly like blood libel.

Quote from: RNGm on February 14, 2025, 09:47:05 AMI stopped watching Extra Credits when he had his horribad "You're a real life nazi if you play as a nazi in games!" hot take whereas previously I really enjoyed his scifi, fantasy, and historical retrospectives.  I wouldn't be surprised if he went full 'tard yet again with a brain fart on the reasons for the removal of fantasy creatures in a fictional setting as monsters.

That's "Evil Races are Bad Game Design" four years ago, right? Yeah, I disagreed hard with that, as we discussed back then.

What pisses me off is doing the same in reverse. Some posters take the same attitude of judging real-life gamers as evil unless they have the correct version of orcs. "You're an evil SJW if your orcs are (blah)."

Orcs are fictional. I can have a game where orcs are evil spirits that inhabit dead bodies, or I can have a game where orcs are good-hearted salt-of-the-earth farmers, or any number of other variations. There's no reason I should have to conform to any particular version of orc.

Quote from: blackstone on February 14, 2025, 10:04:55 AM

Quote from: RNGm on February 14, 2025, 09:47:05 AMI stopped watching Extra Credits when he had his horribad "You're a real life nazi if you play as a nazi in games!" hot take whereas previously I really enjoyed his scifi, fantasy, and historical retrospectives.  I wouldn't be surprised if he went full 'tard yet again with a brain fart on the reasons for the removal of fantasy creatures in a fictional setting as monsters.

The link is a rebuttal to Extra Credit's insane video.

I know; I did click to start playing so I could watch it later in my history.   I was just chiming in to comment on the original channel they're rebutting.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 14, 2025, 10:17:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 14, 2025, 09:46:37 AMAnyway, the reason why the association was made between orcs and black folks by the woke is because they believe that all fictional monsters are actually caricatures of non-white and non-straight people. Under their belief system, monsters are created as a way to stigmatize and demonize minorities. This is obviously nonsensical, as monsters like the pishtaco are literally based on fears of being exploited by white colonizers!

  Another part of their reasoning works as following:

  1. Minorities have sometimes been described in monstrous terms by racists;
  2. Ergo, anything being described as monstrous is racist, adjacent to racism, or otherwise suspect.

I'm convinced most of the activism around pop culture is this kind of free association. Which leads to some hilarious contradictions.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2025, 12:20:47 PMOrcs are fictional. I can have a game where orcs are evil spirits that inhabit dead bodies, or I can have a game where orcs are good-hearted salt-of-the-earth farmers, or any number of other variations. There's no reason I should have to conform to any particular version of orc.

I have no problem with new games/settings coming out with non-evil versions of previously monolithically evil races (like Eberron did with Drow back in 3.x) as long as the world is consistent (NOT a synonym for stagnant though).  Exceptions to the rules should be up to players and GMs and not completely upend the longstanding lore that players have grown to love for decades (even if it was occasionally inconsistent).

Quote from: RNGm on February 14, 2025, 01:30:11 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2025, 12:20:47 PMOrcs are fictional. I can have a game where orcs are evil spirits that inhabit dead bodies, or I can have a game where orcs are good-hearted salt-of-the-earth farmers, or any number of other variations. There's no reason I should have to conform to any particular version of orc.

I have no problem with new games/settings coming out with non-evil versions of previously monolithically evil races (like Eberron did with Drow back in 3.x) as long as the world is consistent (NOT a synonym for stagnant though).  Exceptions to the rules should be up to players and GMs and not completely upend the longstanding lore that players have grown to love for decades (even if it was occasionally inconsistent).

In principle I agree about lore.

However, you've just made clear that you don't know the lore. Drow were made a core PC race by Gary Gygax back in 1985 with the publication of Unearthed Arcana, which clearly made them not monolithically evil. This was cemented in the Drizz't books starting in 1988. These happened long before Eberron in the 2000s.

Half-orcs are chaotic evil in the Monster Manual (1977) but were made a non-monolithically-evil PC race with the Player's Handbook (1978).

Full-blooded orcs were first made into an optional PC race in The Orcs of Thar (1988), which is set in the Known World / Mystara. That allowed varying orc alignment, though it was only lawful/neutral/chaotic as was standard for BECMI. Orcs as a whole were still warlike and malevolent, though definitely sillier than they come across in the Monster Manual.

Varying orcs have popped up regularly since then, like in the semi-civilized nation of monsters Droamm in Eberron.

My preferred approach would be for non-world-specific lore to be minimal - and allow for both orcish citizens of Droamm (consistent with Eberron lore) as well as evil orcish armies of Pomarj (consistent with Greyhawk lore). I don't have any D&D books of the 2024 edition yet, and I'm not sure if it meets that criteria.

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2025, 12:17:57 PMorcish citizens of Droamm (consistent with Eberron lore)

You might mean the Shadow Marches, which was considerd a (barely) civilized territory. Droamm was the "monster nation" and not recognized by the civilized nations as anything beyond a dangerous land of monsters.

Hmm, if orcs have no stats, does that mean they cannot be hurt in Organized Play or homebrew campaigns? Does that mean we can all have our PCs grab orcs and strap them on as nigh-invulnerable ablative armor? Say yes, pretty pretty please with gooey gooey gumdrops on top!

*dragon breath!*
Hah! My squirming orc family armor ignores the damage for they are undefined! Screw you dragon, ya bigot!

Yeah, I don't know what WotC is doing. Seems weird. Maybe they're going to make orcs a special supplement, or a lifestyle brand consumer goods line. Maybe there'll be a new fragrance line: "Orq -- plunder their senses, leave them ravished!"

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 16, 2025, 04:30:17 PMYeah, I don't know what WotC is doing. Seems weird. Maybe they're going to make orcs a special supplement, or a lifestyle brand consumer goods line. Maybe there'll be a new fragrance line: "Orq -- plunder their senses, leave them ravished!"

This article came across my newsfeed today, so I guess they're just going to put them in setting books.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/evil-drow-statblocks-to-return-in-forgotten-realms-rulebooks-later-this-year.711606/

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 16, 2025, 04:30:17 PMHmm, if orcs have no stats, does that mean they cannot be hurt in Organized Play or homebrew campaigns? Does that mean we can all have our PCs grab orcs and strap them on as nigh-invulnerable ablative armor? Say yes, pretty pretty please with gooey gooey gumdrops on top!

*dragon breath!*
Hah! My squirming orc family armor ignores the damage for they are undefined! Screw you dragon, ya bigot!

Yeah, I don't know what WotC is doing. Seems weird. Maybe they're going to make orcs a special supplement, or a lifestyle brand consumer goods line. Maybe there'll be a new fragrance line: "Orq -- plunder their senses, leave them ravished!"

Can you imagine how the other humanoids feel? All the goblins & hobgoblins standing around wondering why orcs get all this special treatment. That's racist! Oh sure make orcs so superior and untouchable. What about us?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 17, 2025, 08:03:01 AMCan you imagine how the other humanoids feel?

Most of those are not Humanoids anymore: Goblinoids became Fey, Gnolls became Fiends, others may have change too (AFB, can't check right now).

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 17, 2025, 09:54:02 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 17, 2025, 08:03:01 AMCan you imagine how the other humanoids feel?

Most of those are not Humanoids anymore: Goblinoids became Fey, Gnolls became Fiends, others may have change too (AFB, can't check right now).

OMG, look at those epithets being thrown around! Has WotC no shame?

Just making light of how silly this has all been. Reinventing the wheel to save the children, as it were. Apparently humanity needed those dangerous playgrounds to weed out the weak to preserve the common sense of future adults.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 16, 2025, 04:30:17 PMHmm, if orcs have no stats, does that mean they cannot be hurt in Organized Play or homebrew campaigns? Does that mean we can all have our PCs grab orcs and strap them on as nigh-invulnerable ablative armor? Say yes, pretty pretty please with gooey gooey gumdrops on top!

Orcs are now being treated exactly the same as how other PC races were treated in the 2014 edition. There is no "Dwarf" or "Dragonborn" entry in the 2014 Monster Manual, yet I frequently fought against enemy dwarves, dragonborn, and other NPCs in my 5e campaigns.

I guess there were some DMs who in 2014 suddenly felt they couldn't have evil dragonborn as enemies in their campaigns any more. I think that's a failure of those DMs rather than a failure of the 2014 rules, though.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 17, 2025, 09:54:02 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 17, 2025, 08:03:01 AMCan you imagine how the other humanoids feel?

Most of those are not Humanoids anymore: Goblinoids became Fey, Gnolls became Fiends, others may have change too (AFB, can't check right now).

Oh the inhumanity! Not only are orcs treated as full on people, the other humanoids have had their personhoods stripped away.