Quote from: SHARK on February 12, 2025, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 08:25:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 11, 2025, 04:29:24 PMGreetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As usual, SHARK manages to make everything sound far more exciting.

I'm curious, though. How does all that rape appear in your game when you're actually running it at the table? I find that a lot of the best monsters pose some level of sexual threat, whether that's in the direct sense of something like Lovecraft's Deep Ones or the more symbolic sense of the Xenomorph. But I've always shied away from putting that into any RPG material, on the assumption that it would just be horribly awkward in practice and such things are better left for non-interactive mediums.

Greetings!

Good afternoon, my friend! Definitely a good time here for some fresh brewed coffee! I'm drinking some Italian Roast. Very nice to have, anytime, though especially on cold, winter days! Lighting up a good cigar, and chewing on your questions here.

Well, most of the time, experiencing the aftermath of being taken captive by savage Orcs has been shown by the testimonies and accounts made by the rescued survivors to the Player Characters.

"There now, are three farm girls that emerge from the blasted caves, and the fires crackling in pits nearby. The farm girls appear gaunt, beaten and crushed down, with distant, aloof eyes. Two of them are pregnant, heavy with child. Their hair is generally long, matted, and covered in sweat and blood. The women are decorated with numerous scars from being clawed, whipped, and bitten. The women speak in only sharp, halting speech, and follow your instructions quickly, though with an observed docility and servitude. A larger gaggle of rescued slaves follows them out from the dark slave pens, and they all have a similar grim appearance. Nonetheless, there are meek flickers of gratitude that they express as they follow your instructions. They have survived a terrifying and harrowing experience.

And yes, there amidst the throng of desperate slaves, is the Wizard's Apprentice you were originally searching for. Clive Taben is alive, though entirely transformed from what you knew of him from over a year since passed. Where once Clive was a clean-cut, well-dressed scholar, an urban gentleman just entering his prime with a bright, curious smile and inspiring cheerfulness--that is all gone. Now Clive Taben has a full beard, his hair grown well passed his shoulders in an unruly mass, and he occasionally growls and makes strange animal-like noises. His naked body is somewhat muscular and lean--no doubt from the frequent hard labour he has been subjected to by the Orcs. As you find some clothes for him to wear, it is striking to notice that his shoulders and sides have long, deepened scars. His chest has a rough tattoo of a boar's head scribed into his flesh, and he wears a simple necklace made of iron chain links, and holding iron-dipped wolves' teeth.

On the march back to civilization from the encampments of the Black Fist Orc tribe, you have rescued some 40 Human women, and about 18 Human men. Along the journey, you learn that these captives were enslaved for months at a time, with some being enslaved for several years. Whether they were enslaved for months, or several years, the slaves' experiences will no doubt stay with them forever. Many of the women are currently pregnant with child. Many of them have been virtually kept constantly pregnant during their years of enslavement. Year after year, breeding for their Orc masters. The surviving men relate to you that alongside their daily labour in the nearby iron mines, they were frequently tortured and beaten by the Orc masters. Whipped and beaten down, by one brute Orc, or several. The Orcs guarded them watchfully, even suspiciously, on a constant basis. Barking harsh commands at them, snarling savage insults at them, and always swift with the gauntleted hand of discipline. Meanwhile, at night, groups of fierce Orc women would take their turns raping the men, again and again. A few men refused and sought to resist early on--one was fed right there to the Spined Boars that the Orcs kept in nearby pens. Several others were set upon by the large, aggressive Orc women, and swiftly beaten down, and ripped open, for all to see. The Orc women were just as violent and ruthlessly brutal as the Orc men. The Orc women commanded obedience--and for the Human men that survived, they bowed their heads and submitted quickly. Over time, the Orc women would show some favour and preference for their Human slaves by feeding them rations of extra meat, and even a sip of harsh fire ale now and then. The men were treated with the frequent news that their female Orc mistresses were pregnant. The Orcs are robust and savage, and very fertile. While the Orc women had a rough hierarchy, and the stronger had more privileges, the Orc women eagerly shared their male Human slaves amongst them, several dozen and more of Orc women from the tribe. Always more Orc women joining in the nighttime orgies by the bonfires. The Human men were exhausted, day and night. Every new day brought more backbreaking work in the mines, and lashings from the whips of their Orc masters."

So, that is pretty typical. The Player Characters know very well what dealing with the Orcs is like. They have seen up close what the Orcs stand for, and what the Orcs seek to accomplish. The Orcs always view themselves as the superior race, the masters, entitled to obedience, animals, land, and booty. Other races are destined to be beaten down by the mighty hand of the Orc, and crushed as slaves for the Orcs. The Orcs are proud, simple, brutal, and ruthless.

As for how the Players handle it? Well, the Players handle it just fine. This is a harsh and brutal world their characters live within, so they expect the environment to be a Dark Ages of savagery, fire, blood, and ruthless brutality. "Might Makes Right!", and "The Strong Rule Over The Weak!"--these things are known to be deep truths and everyday reality. As for their *Characters*--well, they handle all of this with different levels of outrage, inspiration, leadership, and wisdom. They know they are dealing with a hostile, brutal culture and race that is foreign to them--but also oppositional, on almost every level. The aftermath and residual consequences are the victims and survivors alike caught up in the trauma of war, conquest, slavery, and terror.

And, well, of course, back in civilization, many Human communities have growing hordes of dark, sweaty poor people teeming in their streets, clamoring always for more food, more silver, more rights. Always in the midst of the unwashed masses are many Half Orcs. The masses of unwashed poor are often covered in mud and lead harsh and brutal lives within the shadows and gutters of civilization.

So, yes, there is always tension, drama, and conflict involved, whether such is political, economic, and racial strife, as well as emotional and family-related drama, fights, and disputes. Arguments rage back and forth over the proper response, the proper and effective policy for government and society, but these conflicts are also grappled with on the family level and within a neighborhood level and scope.

I hope I have answered your questions, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Question: WHEN AND WHERE CAN I PLAY IN YOUR GAME? HOLY SHIT! IT'S AMAZING! I'D DRIVE HALF A CONTINENT TO GET IN ON THAT ACTION!

Quote from: blackstone on February 12, 2025, 12:37:54 PMYou mean the "general behavior of the monster" part? The part that is clearly not about alignment, but about behavior?

So in other words, yes... you did miss it totally.

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 12, 2025, 08:55:22 PMOK, dumb question. Does anyone else have their orcs and various humanoids eat their captives or occasionally each other (in times of famine)? Or is it just me in my games?

Gnolls sure do. Orcs? Depends. Theres a long running Keep on the Borderlands comic where the orcs in the Caves of Chaos kill off one of the PCs that way and would have been the fate of the others too. That player just had bad luck in the session the comic was based on.

In general there seems to be a shift in how humanoids are defined and depicted. There seems to be this emphasis on humanoids having free will and such, whereas other types don't. Gnolls are now fiends, goblinoids are now fey, etc.

They're also changing the gendered monsters taken from myth (e.g. dryad, hag, medusa) to having representatives of both sexes. (Oddly, they don't have a third body type for nonbinary.)

Quote from: Omega on February 13, 2025, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 12, 2025, 12:37:54 PMYou mean the "general behavior of the monster" part? The part that is clearly not about alignment, but about behavior?

So in other words, yes... you did miss it totally.

 that's cool. enlighten me.

Quote from: blackstone on February 13, 2025, 10:30:12 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 12, 2025, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 08:25:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 11, 2025, 04:29:24 PMGreetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As usual, SHARK manages to make everything sound far more exciting.

I'm curious, though. How does all that rape appear in your game when you're actually running it at the table? I find that a lot of the best monsters pose some level of sexual threat, whether that's in the direct sense of something like Lovecraft's Deep Ones or the more symbolic sense of the Xenomorph. But I've always shied away from putting that into any RPG material, on the assumption that it would just be horribly awkward in practice and such things are better left for non-interactive mediums.

Greetings!

Good afternoon, my friend! Definitely a good time here for some fresh brewed coffee! I'm drinking some Italian Roast. Very nice to have, anytime, though especially on cold, winter days! Lighting up a good cigar, and chewing on your questions here.

Well, most of the time, experiencing the aftermath of being taken captive by savage Orcs has been shown by the testimonies and accounts made by the rescued survivors to the Player Characters.

"There now, are three farm girls that emerge from the blasted caves, and the fires crackling in pits nearby. The farm girls appear gaunt, beaten and crushed down, with distant, aloof eyes. Two of them are pregnant, heavy with child. Their hair is generally long, matted, and covered in sweat and blood. The women are decorated with numerous scars from being clawed, whipped, and bitten. The women speak in only sharp, halting speech, and follow your instructions quickly, though with an observed docility and servitude. A larger gaggle of rescued slaves follows them out from the dark slave pens, and they all have a similar grim appearance. Nonetheless, there are meek flickers of gratitude that they express as they follow your instructions. They have survived a terrifying and harrowing experience.

And yes, there amidst the throng of desperate slaves, is the Wizard's Apprentice you were originally searching for. Clive Taben is alive, though entirely transformed from what you knew of him from over a year since passed. Where once Clive was a clean-cut, well-dressed scholar, an urban gentleman just entering his prime with a bright, curious smile and inspiring cheerfulness--that is all gone. Now Clive Taben has a full beard, his hair grown well passed his shoulders in an unruly mass, and he occasionally growls and makes strange animal-like noises. His naked body is somewhat muscular and lean--no doubt from the frequent hard labour he has been subjected to by the Orcs. As you find some clothes for him to wear, it is striking to notice that his shoulders and sides have long, deepened scars. His chest has a rough tattoo of a boar's head scribed into his flesh, and he wears a simple necklace made of iron chain links, and holding iron-dipped wolves' teeth.

On the march back to civilization from the encampments of the Black Fist Orc tribe, you have rescued some 40 Human women, and about 18 Human men. Along the journey, you learn that these captives were enslaved for months at a time, with some being enslaved for several years. Whether they were enslaved for months, or several years, the slaves' experiences will no doubt stay with them forever. Many of the women are currently pregnant with child. Many of them have been virtually kept constantly pregnant during their years of enslavement. Year after year, breeding for their Orc masters. The surviving men relate to you that alongside their daily labour in the nearby iron mines, they were frequently tortured and beaten by the Orc masters. Whipped and beaten down, by one brute Orc, or several. The Orcs guarded them watchfully, even suspiciously, on a constant basis. Barking harsh commands at them, snarling savage insults at them, and always swift with the gauntleted hand of discipline. Meanwhile, at night, groups of fierce Orc women would take their turns raping the men, again and again. A few men refused and sought to resist early on--one was fed right there to the Spined Boars that the Orcs kept in nearby pens. Several others were set upon by the large, aggressive Orc women, and swiftly beaten down, and ripped open, for all to see. The Orc women were just as violent and ruthlessly brutal as the Orc men. The Orc women commanded obedience--and for the Human men that survived, they bowed their heads and submitted quickly. Over time, the Orc women would show some favour and preference for their Human slaves by feeding them rations of extra meat, and even a sip of harsh fire ale now and then. The men were treated with the frequent news that their female Orc mistresses were pregnant. The Orcs are robust and savage, and very fertile. While the Orc women had a rough hierarchy, and the stronger had more privileges, the Orc women eagerly shared their male Human slaves amongst them, several dozen and more of Orc women from the tribe. Always more Orc women joining in the nighttime orgies by the bonfires. The Human men were exhausted, day and night. Every new day brought more backbreaking work in the mines, and lashings from the whips of their Orc masters."

So, that is pretty typical. The Player Characters know very well what dealing with the Orcs is like. They have seen up close what the Orcs stand for, and what the Orcs seek to accomplish. The Orcs always view themselves as the superior race, the masters, entitled to obedience, animals, land, and booty. Other races are destined to be beaten down by the mighty hand of the Orc, and crushed as slaves for the Orcs. The Orcs are proud, simple, brutal, and ruthless.

As for how the Players handle it? Well, the Players handle it just fine. This is a harsh and brutal world their characters live within, so they expect the environment to be a Dark Ages of savagery, fire, blood, and ruthless brutality. "Might Makes Right!", and "The Strong Rule Over The Weak!"--these things are known to be deep truths and everyday reality. As for their *Characters*--well, they handle all of this with different levels of outrage, inspiration, leadership, and wisdom. They know they are dealing with a hostile, brutal culture and race that is foreign to them--but also oppositional, on almost every level. The aftermath and residual consequences are the victims and survivors alike caught up in the trauma of war, conquest, slavery, and terror.

And, well, of course, back in civilization, many Human communities have growing hordes of dark, sweaty poor people teeming in their streets, clamoring always for more food, more silver, more rights. Always in the midst of the unwashed masses are many Half Orcs. The masses of unwashed poor are often covered in mud and lead harsh and brutal lives within the shadows and gutters of civilization.

So, yes, there is always tension, drama, and conflict involved, whether such is political, economic, and racial strife, as well as emotional and family-related drama, fights, and disputes. Arguments rage back and forth over the proper response, the proper and effective policy for government and society, but these conflicts are also grappled with on the family level and within a neighborhood level and scope.

I hope I have answered your questions, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Question: WHEN AND WHERE CAN I PLAY IN YOUR GAME? HOLY SHIT! IT'S AMAZING! I'D DRIVE HALF A CONTINENT TO GET IN ON THAT ACTION!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Thank you, my friend! Blackstone, it would be fantastic to game with you, man!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: blackstone on February 13, 2025, 12:25:45 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 13, 2025, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 12, 2025, 12:37:54 PMYou mean the "general behavior of the monster" part? The part that is clearly not about alignment, but about behavior?

So in other words, yes... you did miss it totally.

 that's cool. enlighten me.

blackstone may have me on ignore now, but I'll reiterate what I said earlier.

The 1E MM defines the listed alignment as a "characteristic bent". This means a tendency rather than an absolute. If I say that elves have a characteristic bent towards Chaotic Good, then that means that most elves are Chaotic Good, but that individual elves may have different alignment.

Third edition introduced qualifiers to alignment like "always" and "usually". But 1E lists elf alignment the same way that it lists demon alignment. There are very rarely qualifiers on alignment in the 1E MM. Two creatures have "see below" for alignment: the Homonculus and Man (pilgrim).

So in the 1E MM, elves are listed as "Alignment: Chaotic Good" - but it's also true that when someone makes an elf PC in 1E AD&D, they have their choice of alignment. Likewise, half-orcs are included in the "Orc" entry in the MM. They are listed as Chaotic Evil. However, if someone makes a half-orc PC, they have their choice of alignment.

Quote from: jhkim on February 13, 2025, 03:58:24 PMSo in the 1E MM, elves are listed as "Alignment: Chaotic Good" - but it's also true that when someone makes an elf PC in 1E AD&D, they have their choice of alignment. Likewise, half-orcs are included in the "Orc" entry in the MM. They are listed as Chaotic Evil. However, if someone makes a half-orc PC, they have their choice of alignment.

So, today jhkim discovers the difference between "monsters" and "player characters."  Congratulations!  Maybe tomorrow the difference between "player" and "dungeon master" will finally click, eh?

Quote from: jhkim on February 13, 2025, 03:58:24 PMblackstone may have me on ignore now, but I'll reiterate what I said earlier.

No, I don't have you on ignore. I felt it was best if we back off a bit.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 13, 2025, 09:33:02 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 13, 2025, 03:58:24 PMSo in the 1E MM, elves are listed as "Alignment: Chaotic Good" - but it's also true that when someone makes an elf PC in 1E AD&D, they have their choice of alignment. Likewise, half-orcs are included in the "Orc" entry in the MM. They are listed as Chaotic Evil. However, if someone makes a half-orc PC, they have their choice of alignment.

So, today jhkim discovers the difference between "monsters" and "player characters."  Congratulations!  Maybe tomorrow the difference between "player" and "dungeon master" will finally click, eh?

Right. MY understanding was that alignment listed in the MM was an absolute for monsters listed therein. I mean, who'd ever heard of a good demon or devil, let alone a Lawful good orc?

Now, player character races are a different thing entirely. Players are free to choose what alignment their PC can be, barring class restriction of course.

But here's the thing: once you had the rules, you can do whatever you want Pre-5th ed D&D. Now we have SJWs running through the halls of WoTC, willing and able to slam the DEI hammer down on everything they publish. On top of that, if you don't fall in line with their changes, you will be shamed publicly for it. That's the problem.

Let's be honest here folks: nobody ever saw Orcs as an analogy to black people. Ever...Until the SJWs got involved. Then all of a sudden, Orcs are racist depictions of black people? Just because they said so? So they changed the Orcs as depicted, to look like Mexicans. C'mon, who's the REAL racist here?

That's why these people are hypocrites, and they constantly project their fears and hatred upon those who they perceive as their enemy. These SJWs say their oppressed, when in reality, they've become the oppressor. They forgot the one thing about freedom: true freedom is allowing those you appose to speak and be who they are, AND SUPPORT THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO. But they can't. In doing so, it would open them to true discussion, and by doing that, they know their point of view would fall apart under scrutiny, like a house of cards. 

An excellent rebuttal to the Orc removal video

A 3pp supplement from the 3.x era, Children of the Planes by Tangent Games, introduced lawful good orcs as a subrace of planetouched. They were called "leonorks" because they had leonine features. Their favored class was paladin, naturally. According to their history, they came into existence when the sad painful death cries of dying orcs conjured an orc goddess of mercy. She created the leonorks as a second chance for the orcs.

Another, Mythic Races by Fantasy Flight Games, introduced "risen fiends" who decided to become good as a playable race.

Anyway, the reason why the association was made between orcs and black folks by the woke is because they believe that all fictional monsters are actually caricatures of non-white and non-straight people. Under their belief system, monsters are created as a way to stigmatize and demonize minorities. This is obviously nonsensical, as monsters like the pishtaco are literally based on fears of being exploited by white colonizers!

I stopped watching Extra Credits when he had his horribad "You're a real life nazi if you play as a nazi in games!" hot take whereas previously I really enjoyed his scifi, fantasy, and historical retrospectives.  I wouldn't be surprised if he went full 'tard yet again with a brain fart on the reasons for the removal of fantasy creatures in a fictional setting as monsters.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 14, 2025, 09:46:37 AMAnyway, the reason why the association was made between orcs and black folks by the woke is because they believe that all fictional monsters are actually caricatures of non-white and non-straight people. Under their belief system, monsters are created as a way to stigmatize and demonize minorities. This is obviously nonsensical, as monsters like the pishtaco are literally based on fears of being exploited by white colonizers!

And that's why they're insane: they cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality.

Quote from: RNGm on February 14, 2025, 09:47:05 AMI stopped watching Extra Credits when he had his horribad "You're a real life nazi if you play as a nazi in games!" hot take whereas previously I really enjoyed his scifi, fantasy, and historical retrospectives.  I wouldn't be surprised if he went full 'tard yet again with a brain fart on the reasons for the removal of fantasy creatures in a fictional setting as monsters.

The link is a rebuttal to Extra Credit's insane video.