Quote from: SHARK on February 11, 2025, 04:29:24 PMGreetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As usual, SHARK manages to make everything sound far more exciting.

I'm curious, though. How does all that rape appear in your game when you're actually running it at the table? I find that a lot of the best monsters pose some level of sexual threat, whether that's in the direct sense of something like Lovecraft's Deep Ones or the more symbolic sense of the Xenomorph. But I've always shied away from putting that into any RPG material, on the assumption that it would just be horribly awkward in practice and such things are better left for non-interactive mediums.

Quote from: Green Demon on February 11, 2025, 12:13:16 PMSo yeah, we agree on this issue. You presumably on to the right and me on the left. And we both love good games.

And that's how it was for the first 35+ years of the hobby.  The two of us could sit at the table, having a good time, without politics getting in the way of either of our fun.  I long for the old days of liberal/left politicos who generally wanted the same things (freedom, family, the American Dream) but just differed on how to get there (guys like Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and you, perhaps).  That's the way it was, and should be again...

So let it be written; so let it be done! </Yul Brenner>

Hate to be pedantic but it's more like 5.5, it's compatible with 5E and the like.

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 11:31:55 AMWe all know you're a schill for WoTC.

Really? What is your evidence?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 11, 2025, 11:47:58 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 11, 2025, 10:58:29 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 07:51:08 AMWoTC should have

The point is that your opinion is no more or less valuable than any other. WoTC doesn't have the same view as you, and that's OK. You can use their materials as is or adjust them to your wants. This is how it *is* (fact) so there's no need to declare how it *should be* (opinion).

Funny, I don't remember you saying the same thing to the folks that wanted female space marines.  Or is this something you just say to try and justify the changes you do like and avoid those you don't?  So we should never criticize what is?  You first...

Care to link to the conversation you seem to be referring to? I'd like to see what position you seem to think I hold on that topic.

Quote from: jhkim on February 11, 2025, 06:51:49 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 06:29:37 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 02:13:40 PMNo nuanced BS, just a straight fucking answer. YES or NO.

Quote from: jhkim on February 11, 2025, 06:17:09 PMI think this is a bullshit question.

It's not a bullshit question because you can man up and take a side.

Have you stopped beating your wife, YES or NO?

That's not an answer, using a question to answer a question.

That's deflection and you know it, and quite frankly that's low even for you in the form you gave it. You can talk shit about me all you want, but don't you EVER bring my family into it.

I think you and I are done. We need to stop before it gets way out of hand. Emotions sometimes get the better of us and we may say things we don't mean.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 08:25:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 11, 2025, 04:29:24 PMGreetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As usual, SHARK manages to make everything sound far more exciting.

I'm curious, though. How does all that rape appear in your game when you're actually running it at the table? I find that a lot of the best monsters pose some level of sexual threat, whether that's in the direct sense of something like Lovecraft's Deep Ones or the more symbolic sense of the Xenomorph. But I've always shied away from putting that into any RPG material, on the assumption that it would just be horribly awkward in practice and such things are better left for non-interactive mediums.

You can add such content to your game in a tasteful way:

Quote"The Orcs fell upon the village, there hearts filled with rage and lust. No man, woman, or child would be safe. The men, murdered in their beds, or cut down in the heat of battle. The women would be brutalized in ways unimaginable. The lucky ones would be dead at the end of their ordeal. The unlucky, taken into slavery. The children? Either taken to be used as slaves, or if too young...The orcs would truly show how black their hearts and souls truly are."

Basically, just suggest at the sexual threat they pose. Leave it up to the imagination of the players to fill in the blanks. Sometimes the best horror is to just see part of the monster, and not the whole thing.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 11, 2025, 08:37:23 PM

Quote from: Green Demon on February 11, 2025, 12:13:16 PMSo yeah, we agree on this issue. You presumably on to the right and me on the left. And we both love good games.

And that's how it was for the first 35+ years of the hobby.  The two of us could sit at the table, having a good time, without politics getting in the way of either of our fun.  I long for the old days of liberal/left politicos who generally wanted the same things (freedom, family, the American Dream) but just differed on how to get there (guys like Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and you, perhaps).  That's the way it was, and should be again...

So let it be written; so let it be done! </Yul Brenner>

Yeah, nobody gave a damn about such things and the gaming table. We didn't want it to interfere. We wanted to escape.

Now?

We have heated arguments on forums to which it devolves to name-calling, or forums that literally gate-keep others out if you don't follow their political views (I'm looking at you, www.rpg.net).

Why is that? Because the current owner of the game we all grew up with and loved decided that they had to politicize the game by injecting real-world DEI and SJW garbage.

Plus it's not just D&D. Look at the list of left-leaning companies that have been generated. Some are better than others to keep such things out of their games, but even then, we have creators who say things like "If you're a Trump supporter, don't buy my game!"

What the actual fuck?

This goes to prove that business and political activism do not go together. The corporate execs thought in their hubris they could pander to a minority of customers, and believed that the majority wouldn't give a shit.

Bud Light? Disney? UbiSoft? Go woke, go broke.

It's madness.

Quote from: blackstone on February 12, 2025, 09:08:17 AMNow?

We have heated arguments on forums

IME, people that meet face-to-face don't behave like those on forums. Sure, you hear horror stories of weird shit at the table, but for every one of those, there are uncounted sessions that go by without such drama. This is a social media (and I include forums as an early version of social media) problem, not a gaming problem.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 12, 2025, 09:54:35 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 12, 2025, 09:08:17 AMNow?

We have heated arguments on forums

IME, people that meet face-to-face don't behave like those on forums. Sure, you hear horror stories of weird shit at the table, but for every one of those, there are uncounted sessions that go by without such drama. This is a social media (and I include forums as an early version of social media) problem, not a gaming problem.

I certainly hope you're right, but who knows what the future holds.

I'm a "hope for the best, but expect the worst", kind of guy.

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 02:32:29 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 11, 2025, 01:48:15 PMAlso keep in mind that either the AD&D DMG or MM states that alignment is not set in stone. What is listed is just what you are most likely to encounter.

As per the AD&D Monster Manual (1977):

QuoteALIGNMENT shows the characteristic bent of a monster to law or chaos, good or evil, or towards neutral behavior possibly modified by good or evil intent. It is important with regard to the general behavior of the monster when encountered.

Nowhere does it state that alignment can be modified or changed. Also, behavior is different that alignment.

Also, nowhere in the AD&D DMG pgs 23-25 (1979) does it state anything about monsters' changing alignment. Only in regards to characters.

Did I miss something?

You apparently missed the GENERAL part... you know... the majority... not... you know... ALL of the whatever.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 08:25:57 PMBut I've always shied away from putting that into any RPG material, on the assumption that it would just be horribly awkward in practice and such things are better left for non-interactive mediums.

I feel the same way. The supermajority of the time even in non-interactive mediums it's handled poorly.

So I use the orcs as described in Dungeons & Delvers. They're demons sent by Orcus who possess corpses to exist in the mortal world. After killing their victims, they use the corpses as vessels for more orcs. They don't go around being patriarchal and misogynistic. They don't need to be.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 12, 2025, 11:00:34 AMSo I use the orcs as described in Dungeons & Delvers. They're demons sent by Orcus who possess corpses to exist in the mortal world. After killing their victims, they use the corpses as vessels for more orcs. They don't go around being patriarchal and misogynistic. They don't need to be.

So basically like vampires from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 12, 2025, 11:12:39 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 12, 2025, 11:00:34 AMSo I use the orcs as described in Dungeons & Delvers. They're demons sent by Orcus who possess corpses to exist in the mortal world. After killing their victims, they use the corpses as vessels for more orcs. They don't go around being patriarchal and misogynistic. They don't need to be.

So basically like vampires from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

They don't even have that much. This is what they look like:


Here's the relevant posts on the author's blog:
https://daegames.blogspot.com/2018/05/dungeons-delvers-where-do-baby-gnolls.html
https://daegames.blogspot.com/2021/05/inherently-evil-races-arent-bad-game.html

QuoteThey are demonic entities with "oily and dark skin", created by Orcus, and exist only to slaughter and destroy. They don't have a culture, as they don't possess the capacity for complete human thought: why would Orcus bestow that upon them, even if he were capable of doing so?

QuoteIn Dungeons & Delvers orcs are the minions of Orcus, demonic spirits tightly wrapped in the flesh of other races, because they cannot remain unprotected in the natural world/Prime Material Plane for long without dissipating.

It might kill them, or just send them back to the underworld. Never really decided. Maybe some particularly powerful or strong-willed orc apparitions can stick around? Or maybe slicing open an orc's skin-shell releases the demonic essence, and it can keep fighting for another few rounds before vanishing?

Anyway, it's because of this that orcs don't need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep. They don't aspire to much, existing only to slaughter, offering up the remains of victims as sacrifices to Orcus, and using the leftover skins to summon more orcs into the world.

This makes them quite a bit different then your typical orc, and also avoids the whole "is it okay to kill a baby orc" (non?)issue that I saw crop up way back when WotC still had a Dungeons & Dragons forum, which fortunately I never had to deal with at my table.

So you can kill them guilt-free, as they have no women or children, no capacity to change, etc. You don't have to worry about any ickiness or torture-porn beyond the murder, human sacrifice and desecration of corpses, which everyone regardless of gender can relate to in the same way.

Quote from: Omega on February 12, 2025, 10:56:25 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 02:32:29 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 11, 2025, 01:48:15 PMAlso keep in mind that either the AD&D DMG or MM states that alignment is not set in stone. What is listed is just what you are most likely to encounter.

As per the AD&D Monster Manual (1977):

QuoteALIGNMENT shows the characteristic bent of a monster to law or chaos, good or evil, or towards neutral behavior possibly modified by good or evil intent. It is important with regard to the general behavior of the monster when encountered.

Nowhere does it state that alignment can be modified or changed. Also, behavior is different that alignment.

Also, nowhere in the AD&D DMG pgs 23-25 (1979) does it state anything about monsters' changing alignment. Only in regards to characters.

Did I miss something?

You apparently missed the GENERAL part... you know... the majority... not... you know... ALL of the whatever.

You mean the "general behavior of the monster" part? The part that is clearly not about alignment, but about behavior?

"Lawful evil", "Chaotic good", are alignments as defined by AD&D.

"hostile", "friendly" are behaviors determined by the encounter reaction table on pg 63 of the DMG.

You can have a Lawful evil creature act friendly to the group, or a Chaotic good creature be hostile as well.

Now alignment can influence behavior. I'll grant you that. Lawful creatures tend to be more orderly, Chaotic creatures are more unorderly and live for the moment. Evil creatures tend to be more cruel and vindictive, while good creatures are mostly courteous and gentile.

Maybe a monster was charmed, or went insane, and alignment changed, but those are extreme outliers and are not considered the norm according to the rules.

But you go ahead and do what you want.