Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 12:21:06 PMI don't think there are reliable stats, but based on what I see around the internet, I'd guess that what the majority of role-players under around 40 years old expect is a slightly modified version of the Warcraft orc. A big, muscly noble-savage type with a vaguely shamanistic vibe and an oversized weapon. The males are an avatar for those that want to play a dumb meathead and the females are a fantasy for those with a muscle-mommy fetish. 

In all seriousness, I think you basically described the 4e and onward orc (and possibly a bit of 3.5 mixed in) but I'm not sure WOTC sees that player base as their audience or, more accurately, their desired audience.  Judging from all the cosplayer wannabe O-face art I saw throughout the PHB, I think their intended "modern" audience are the theater kids/cosplayers who watch livestreams of games rather than play them themselves.

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 12:19:29 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 12:09:24 PMPersonally I think you can keep orcs as villains and still make them more interesting, but you do have to give them more complicated motivations than just a love of violence.

No, you don't have to give them more motivation than love of violence. That choice is up to the DM. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most horrifying.

(bolding mine)

Of course it is, and there's certainly a place for simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!" monsters for the heroes to fight. I occasionally use them in my games. I just don't find them all that interesting as main villains. They work better as instruments in the hands of a Saruman type character.

Quote from: RNGm on February 11, 2025, 12:45:59 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 12:21:06 PMI don't think there are reliable stats, but based on what I see around the internet, I'd guess that what the majority of role-players under around 40 years old expect is a slightly modified version of the Warcraft orc. A big, muscly noble-savage type with a vaguely shamanistic vibe and an oversized weapon. The males are an avatar for those that want to play a dumb meathead and the females are a fantasy for those with a muscle-mommy fetish. 

In all seriousness, I think you basically described the 4e and onward orc (and possibly a bit of 3.5 mixed in) but I'm not sure WOTC sees that player base as their audience or, more accurately, their desired audience.  Judging from all the cosplayer wannabe O-face art I saw throughout the PHB, I think their intended "modern" audience are the theater kids/cosplayers who watch livestreams of games rather than play them themselves.

Not trolling. Possibly being a smartass.

I'm genuinely interested in trends in popular fantasy, even if they aren't to my taste, and I think it'd be amusing if WOTC does manage to alienate the  existing 5e audience. "WOTC alienates grognards" is a dog-bites-man story. "WOTC alienates the reddit zoomers" would be a case of man-bites-dog.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 01:28:18 PMOf course it is, and there's certainly a place for simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!" monsters for the heroes to fight. I occasionally use them in my games. I just don't find them all that interesting as main villains. They work better as instruments in the hands of a Saruman type character.

I think it's what we interpret as "villains".

Saruman is a villain. An Orc is a tool to be used by a villain. At least for me.

But you touched on the simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!", and maybe you'll understand my point of view a bit better:

I look at orcs and other goblinoids as kind of a force of evil to be utilized by villains. They're single minded in the goal: to wage war and cause as much destruction of the world of Good races. That's their life. You can't reason with it. You can't bargain with it. Everything they do is to that goal, and Orc society is structured to achieve this goal. They're evil to the core.

IMO, that's much more frightening than any rational opponent. The only thing that reigns it in are the more rational evil villains that lead them.

That's just me.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 10, 2025, 02:54:27 PMIt works, but it does open the door to doing the Drizzt Do'Urden narrative again. "This race has been brainwashed by its evil god into a self-destructive inferiority complex, but our hero (for some reason) sees through the lies and finds a better way." R.A. Salvatore might have actually done that already. I lost interest in his books ages ago, but he was doing an unusually smart and organized orc as the major antagonist around the time I stopped reading.

Nearly all the FR races have good and bad gods and all the predominantly evil races have at least one good god puttering about the edges. Probably the same for other settings. Or gods outside the race occasionally poach a few promising candidates for goody-goodyness. The evil ones sure are doing it from the other direction.

Also keep in mind that either the AD&D DMG or MM states that alignment is not set in stone. What is listed is just what you are most likely to encounter.

People keep conveniently forgetting this so they can push their moral busybody agendas.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 10:25:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 11, 2025, 02:15:06 AMOTOH, I really don't much like the orks from Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K) and only find mild interest in the AoS Kruleboyz (the rest of the AoS orks do nothing for me).

Love 'em or hate 'em, you have to admit that Warhammer's Orks are practically labratory-designed to avoid all the debates around Tolkien Orcs. Orks are mushroom men that reproduce asexually through spores, so no questions about orc babies. Their life cycle is directly reliant on violence for growth, they're almost immune to pain, and they're too stupid to understand their own mortality. They have goblins to do their agriculture and manufacture their weapons, and as a species they were manufactured by Lovecraftian Old Ones to be war machines. You couldn't ask for more justifications for how there can be a species that just fights and nothing else. No questions about whether they can be redeemed, either. They almost fall under the animal category where they don't have enough moral agency for issue to even arise.

40K Orks are a joke race. They were a satire of british soccer holligans, and any rationalizations are like coming up with elaborate backstory about the chicken who crossed the road. The punchline is, whenever someone spends too much time thinking about Ork Kultur, the the Orks bash them over the head and take their stuff.
Having said that, there are Orks who can be parleyed with. Blood Axes are notorious for dealing with other races in non-violent ways. And Freebootas sometimes work as mercenaries. Some gretchin on Gorkamorka have rebelled against the Orks, going against their genetic programming to be a servant race to the Ork ecosystem. Even the 40K orks are more nuanced than just being bad guys. Because that's boring and no fun.
They are pretty damn close though. And that's part of the charm of the race. They guys who are just in it for a good fight. 

Quote from: Omega on February 11, 2025, 01:48:15 PMAlso keep in mind that either the AD&D DMG or MM states that alignment is not set in stone. What is listed is just what you are most likely to encounter.

As per the AD&D Monster Manual (1977):

QuoteALIGNMENT shows the characteristic bent of a monster to law or chaos, good or evil, or towards neutral behavior possibly modified by good or evil intent. It is important with regard to the general behavior of the monster when encountered.

Nowhere does it state that alignment can be modified or changed. Also, behavior is different that alignment.

Also, nowhere in the AD&D DMG pgs 23-25 (1979) does it state anything about monsters' changing alignment. Only in regards to characters.

Did I miss something?

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 01:47:32 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 01:28:18 PMOf course it is, and there's certainly a place for simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!" monsters for the heroes to fight. I occasionally use them in my games. I just don't find them all that interesting as main villains. They work better as instruments in the hands of a Saruman type character.

I think it's what we interpret as "villains".

Saruman is a villain. An Orc is a tool to be used by a villain. At least for me.

But you touched on the simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!", and maybe you'll understand my point of view a bit better:

I look at orcs and other goblinoids as kind of a force of evil to be utilized by villains. They're single minded in the goal: to wage war and cause as much destruction of the world of Good races. That's their life. You can't reason with it. You can't bargain with it. Everything they do is to that goal, and Orc society is structured to achieve this goal. They're evil to the core.

IMO, that's much more frightening than any rational opponent. The only thing that reigns it in are the more rational evil villains that lead them.

That's just me.

I don't think we're that far off of each other. I don't usually use orcs in my game world, because goblins and trolls make them redundant. I run those more in line with their folkloric portrayals, so while they're usually bad news and definitely chaotic, they're not a great fit for the "footsoldiers of evil" role. When I need to fill that role I usually go for something like beastmen or demons, but they still basically fit the description you gave there.

I think the big difference is that I just don't have a lot of use for that role. I run most of my campaigns at street level. I don't do big cosmic good vs. evil, conflicts, so I don't often have an evil overlord type villain which I need an army of goons for. My players are more likely to be dealing directly with the main antagonist and his immediate associates.

Greetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 11, 2025, 07:34:34 AMSignificant enough it needs an entirely separate stat block? Really?

I am talking about how the additional abilities affect the creature's CR.  Try to keep up with the conversation.  Also, if you look at the PHB, that's not the only ability that orcs get. 


-Adrenaline Rush: You can take the Dash action as a Bonus Action. When you do so, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Proficiency Bonus. You can use this trait a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a Short or Long Rest.
-Darkvision. You have Darkvision with a range of 120 feet.
-Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can't do so again until you finish a Long Rest.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 03:55:04 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 01:47:32 PMI look at orcs and other goblinoids as kind of a force of evil to be utilized by villains. They're single minded in the goal: to wage war and cause as much destruction of the world of Good races. That's their life. You can't reason with it. You can't bargain with it. Everything they do is to that goal, and Orc society is structured to achieve this goal. They're evil to the core.

I don't think we're that far off of each other. I don't usually use orcs in my game world, because goblins and trolls make them redundant. I run those more in line with their folkloric portrayals, so while they're usually bad news and definitely chaotic, they're not a great fit for the "footsoldiers of evil" role.

I've seen orcs in a bunch of different roles. A few possibilities include:

• Warhammer orcs are mushroom-inspired war machines
• Orcs in Harn have an insect-like life cycle and social structure. They have hives based around a queen. They aren't footsoldiers for dark lords, but they are a common hazard.
• World of Warcraft orcs are evidently savage but honorable warriors like Klingons
• Orcs in the Sovereign Stone RPG (1999) are a warlike seafaring race that take to the water, taking some traits from killer whales (orcas)

For comparison, orcs in my "Land of New Horizons" setting are one of the four core races of the Solar Empire: dwarves, elves, humans, and orcs. This is inspired by the Incans - who were like the Romans in that they repeatedly turned their enemies into their subjects/allies. Orcs are inherently warlike, but under imperial leadership their tendencies are channeled into good. I think of _Dark Knight Returns_ where Batman recruits the biggest gang to work for him.

I don't think any of these are the one true orcs. People can and should adapt orcs to be different in different worlds.

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 02:13:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2025, 12:52:52 PMIn D&D... Even moreso than in Tolkien's Middle Earth, Gygax's Greyhawk doesn't have orcs as an existential threat to humanity. There is no Mordor filled with only orcs. Rather, the evil nations of Greyhawk are human-dominated, like the Great Kingdom, the Horned Society, and the Land of Iuz. Pomarj is a backwater that is ruled by humanoids like orcs, but even it still has many renegade humans and human mercenaries who work with them. The primary enemy of good humans is evil humans.

If one wants to make a setting where humans are all good and the primary struggle is humans against orcs, that's fine too. But that's not Middle Earth or Greyhawk.

Great. Wonderful. Have cookie...

But the point I ultimately made was this: the choice to make Orcs a monster or not should be left up to the players and DMs, not up to WoTC. Furthermore, in this day and age of DEI rainbowed-haired shitlords, I'm most certain that if you play them other as written in the current rules, you will be called a racist.

Therein lies the problem. Players are not given a choice in the current edition.

Don't you agree we as players and DMs should have a choice, or do you support WoTC's decision?

I think this is a bullshit question. The 2024 D&D books don't have mind control chips in them. If I were to buy the 2024 books, then I'd have a choice about what orcs are like in my campaign.

Fundamentally, D&D is not a universal system with generic mechanics for any possible game world. There has always been a default for what creatures like elves and dwarves and orcs are like. But it's also true that the GM always has the ability to say that elves in his campaign are different than standard elves, or orcs are different than standard orcs.

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 02:32:29 PMAs per the AD&D Monster Manual (1977):

QuoteALIGNMENT shows the characteristic bent of a monster to law or chaos, good or evil, or towards neutral behavior possibly modified by good or evil intent. It is important with regard to the general behavior of the monster when encountered.

Nowhere does it state that alignment can be modified or changed. Also, behavior is different that alignment.

Also, nowhere in the AD&D DMG pgs 23-25 (1979) does it state anything about monsters' changing alignment. Only in regards to characters.

Did I miss something?

The term "characteristic bent" is different than absolute. If I say that elves have a characteristic bent towards Chaotic Good, then that means that most elves are Chaotic Good, but that individual elves may have different alignment.

Indeed, in the 1E MM, elves are listed as "Alignment: Chaotic Good" - but it's also true that when someone makes an elf PC in 1E AD&D, they have their choice of alignment. Likewise, half-orcs are included in the "Orc" entry in the MM. They are listed as Chaotic Evil. However, if someone makes a half-orc PC, they have their choice of alignment.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 03:55:04 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 01:47:32 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 11, 2025, 01:28:18 PMOf course it is, and there's certainly a place for simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!" monsters for the heroes to fight. I occasionally use them in my games. I just don't find them all that interesting as main villains. They work better as instruments in the hands of a Saruman type character.

I think it's what we interpret as "villains".

Saruman is a villain. An Orc is a tool to be used by a villain. At least for me.

But you touched on the simplistically evil "Waagh! Me Smash!", and maybe you'll understand my point of view a bit better:

I look at orcs and other goblinoids as kind of a force of evil to be utilized by villains. They're single minded in the goal: to wage war and cause as much destruction of the world of Good races. That's their life. You can't reason with it. You can't bargain with it. Everything they do is to that goal, and Orc society is structured to achieve this goal. They're evil to the core.

IMO, that's much more frightening than any rational opponent. The only thing that reigns it in are the more rational evil villains that lead them.

That's just me.

I don't think we're that far off of each other. I don't usually use orcs in my game world, because goblins and trolls make them redundant. I run those more in line with their folkloric portrayals, so while they're usually bad news and definitely chaotic, they're not a great fit for the "footsoldiers of evil" role. When I need to fill that role I usually go for something like beastmen or demons, but they still basically fit the description you gave there.

I think the big difference is that I just don't have a lot of use for that role. I run most of my campaigns at street level. I don't do big cosmic good vs. evil, conflicts, so I don't often have an evil overlord type villain which I need an army of goons for. My players are more likely to be dealing directly with the main antagonist and his immediate associates.

Cool. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Besides, it sounds like a pretty cool campaign.

Quote from: SHARK on February 11, 2025, 04:29:24 PMGreetings!

Orcs. Indeed, in my Thandor world, Orcs are savage, brutal, and ruthless. Absolutely devoted to conquest, plunder, and rape. They glorify and exalt conquering, enslaving, and raping other races and creatures. Mass slaughters, huge bonfire celebrations where thousands are sacrificed to the Dark Gods, while herds of captive enemies are kept shackled in the chains of bondage, to be devoured, or ruthlessly bred with on the Orc's whims and bestial desires. Bands of Orc marauders are always fanning out, patrolling their borders, and always on the lookout for any kind of enemies. Orc armies frequently gather and march against some hapless, weak nation, and bring absolute terror and destruction to them.

Orcs laugh at pathetic Human reasoning, philosophy, and intellectualism. The Orcs enjoy taking smug, urban intellectuals captive, and roasting them slowly over the firepits. Or keeping them in a mud-drenched cave where they are routinely tortured and raped, over and over again. With an iron chain around their neck, and being beaten by the whip of their Orc masters. The pathetic civilized Humans learn to beg and scrape on their knees to their rightful masters.

For the Orcs, that is the proper place for Humans, and other races alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep, that how I have the orcs, and pretty much all of the goblinoid races I have, in the game worlds I run.

There almost like a force of nature: without care, remorse, or consideration.

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 02:13:40 PMNo nuanced BS, just a straight fucking answer. YES or NO.

jhkim, funny how you conveniently forgot that part.

You couldn't even give a straight fucking answer. You have zero balls to take a stand on anything.

All you can do is spew some pseudo-intellectual bullshit and sit on the the fence as always.

QuoteI think this is a bullshit question.

It's not a bullshit question because you can man up and take a side.

Quote from: blackstone on February 11, 2025, 06:29:37 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 02:13:40 PMNo nuanced BS, just a straight fucking answer. YES or NO.

Quote from: jhkim on February 11, 2025, 06:17:09 PMI think this is a bullshit question.

It's not a bullshit question because you can man up and take a side.

Have you stopped beating your wife, YES or NO?

I played Palladium.  You could play as orcs, trolls, goblins, hobgoblins, changelings, and Wolfen.

It was the Wolfen you had to watch out for.  They were the only ones to have a clear and successful nation state, and an expansionist one as well. 

That's right.  Our imminent threat was from the dogs.