Any folks here familiar with the game Orbital Blues? It is a rules-lite RPG that has received lots of good reviews online about "sad space cowboys," meant to mimic such space western properties as Firefly and Cowboy Bebop.
Page 5 of the book contains an entire page devoted to a content warning about the kinds of subject matter this game might explore including: anxiety, death, depression, gambling, mental illness and associated traumas, poverty, smoking, substance abuse, violence. It then goes on to give the 2020's era typical warnings against not touching upon any themes or topics that might distress any of your players, and recommends various safety tools.
I started to see it was pretty political and leftist when I read these descriptions in the text beyond in regard to the setting:
"Despite being a universe with interplanetary travel, data
networks and personal spaceships, the Frontier Galaxy of
ORBITAL BLUES partially styles itself on mid-to-late 20th
century aesthetics—from faded 1950s and 60s "Golden
Age of Capitalism" looks to the landscapes of the early 90s
and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy
paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away.
Though these decades have an exciting look and feel,
remember that they were times of great socioeconomic
inequality, injustice for women, people of colour, LGBTQ+
people and people living with disabilities, among others.
The people who made this game explicitly condemn these
attitudes, and do not seek to emulate them or encourage
their recreation."
Like in the real world, social systems in the world of
ORBITAL BLUES have failed vulnerable people. Safety,
money and power have been taken from these people
and stockpiled by a small political and economic minority
of capitalist elites. Your characters have fallen out with this
way of life, if they were ever in it at all, and have chosen to
live a life as Interstellar Outlaws.
Our goal is to tell the stories of those marginalised in this
setting, not glorify their marginalisation
I then knew I was really in for it with this one. I kept reading and stopped after character creation was finished on page 52. In this section was the most extreme super lefty quote I'd read in the book yet. There is a note in regard to one of the Gambits characters can choose during character creation. Gambits are this game's version of feats or talents. There are Gambits where you might have been previously part of an organization in your past, and that can be used in the game to create Troubles and Blues for you. Blues are the game's emotional weights carried by characters. The side note regarding organizations reads:
Crooked Establishments:
There are many types of organization you can be in Too Deep with: criminal gangs, mercenary companies, military units, police departments, corporations. In Orbital Blues, the only difference between a gang member and cop is that one of them is definitely a fascist.
I think this one was way, way over the top, and shows exactly the kind of politically motivated leftist spew we are dealing with here, placed right into the middle of the game they are trying to sell to gamers. The company that produces this game is SoulMuppet Publishing. This was a HUGE turnoff to me and might prevent me from spending over $215 to purchase all the materials for it, as I had planned to do previously.
"Our goal is to tell the stories of those marginalised in this
setting, not glorify their marginalisation"
Meh... Don't tell me what stories I can tell at my own feking table. Especially in a silly elf-game of pure imagination.
Sigh, well this is disappointing. It seemed like an interesting premise, and possibly some interesting mechanics.
The last one you (Batjon) provided really is rough.
Can a police force be corrupt? Sure. Could they attract bad actors? Sure. Do they also attract the very best of us and espouse excellent and inspiring ideals? Also yes. Is it an incredibly hard career? Also yes.
Finally anyone who thinks that society can exist without some sort of policing is incredibly naive.
The first part wasn't bad (subject matter and the like; I no longer consider that "woke" because there's a lot of weirdos playing RPGs now) but the next part was 100% virtue signaling woke crap, and the last solidified it as being an agenda.
Never heard of this and it seems that was for the best.
So its "Soyboy Bebop" then.
One of the major themes of Cowboy Bebop is that wherever you go, people are just people. Everybody's got it rough; everybody gets a long as well as they can. I would say they missed the point, but I doubt they even tried. "All cops are fascists" is one of those statements that could only be unironically made by a person of limited intelligence....so limited that they probably missed the fact that the protagonists of Cowboy Bebop are bounty hunters.
I liked the idea behind this game up until I read those bits. I lost interest shortly after. I had already bought it by then.
Another triumph of style over substance, how is "sad" on the table for space adventures tone?
If you want a new space game that can do Firefly and Bebop as well as Farscape, Lexx, and Outlaw Star check out Bound to None. No political lectures, no pronoun shittery, it even tells you not to use safety tools. And it's free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/486153/bound-to-none
Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 01, 2024, 10:43:34 AMIf you want a new space game that can do Firefly and Bebop as well as Farscape, Lexx, and Outlaw Star check out Bound to None. No political lectures, no pronoun shittery, it even tells you not to use safety tools. And it's free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/486153/bound-to-none
The name says it all!
Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 01, 2024, 10:43:34 AMAnother triumph of style over substance, how is "sad" on the table for space adventures tone?
If you want a new space game that can do Firefly and Bebop as well as Farscape, Lexx, and Outlaw Star check out Bound to None. No political lectures, no pronoun shittery, it even tells you not to use safety tools. And it's free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/486153/bound-to-none
Nope. Dice ladders suck ass IMHO.
Quote from: Batjon on September 01, 2024, 07:44:07 AMAny folks here familiar with the game Orbital Blues? It is a rules-lite RPG that has received lots of good reviews online about "sad space cowboys," meant to mimic such space western properties as Firefly and Cowboy Bebop.
Page 5 of the book contains an entire page devoted to a content warning about the kinds of subject matter this game might explore including: anxiety, death, depression, gambling, mental illness and associated traumas, poverty, smoking, substance abuse, violence. It then goes on to give the 2020's era typical warnings against not touching upon any themes or topics that might distress any of your players, and recommends various safety tools.
I started to see it was pretty political and leftist when I read these descriptions in the text beyond in regard to the setting:
"Despite being a universe with interplanetary travel, data
networks and personal spaceships, the Frontier Galaxy of
ORBITAL BLUES partially styles itself on mid-to-late 20th
century aesthetics—from faded 1950s and 60s "Golden
Age of Capitalism" looks to the landscapes of the early 90s
and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy
paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away.
Though these decades have an exciting look and feel,
remember that they were times of great socioeconomic
inequality, injustice for women, people of colour, LGBTQ+
people and people living with disabilities, among others.
The people who made this game explicitly condemn these
attitudes, and do not seek to emulate them or encourage
their recreation."
Like in the real world, social systems in the world of
ORBITAL BLUES have failed vulnerable people. Safety,
money and power have been taken from these people
and stockpiled by a small political and economic minority
of capitalist elites. Your characters have fallen out with this
way of life, if they were ever in it at all, and have chosen to
live a life as Interstellar Outlaws.
Our goal is to tell the stories of those marginalised in this
setting, not glorify their marginalisation
I then knew I was really in for it with this one. I kept reading and stopped after character creation was finished on page 52. In this section was the most extreme super lefty quote I'd read in the book yet. There is a note in regard to one of the Gambits characters can choose during character creation. Gambits are this game's version of feats or talents. There are Gambits where you might have been previously part of an organization in your past, and that can be used in the game to create Troubles and Blues for you. Blues are the game's emotional weights carried by characters. The side note regarding organizations reads:
Crooked Establishments:
There are many types of organization you can be in Too Deep with: criminal gangs, mercenary companies, military units, police departments, corporations. In Orbital Blues, the only difference between a gang member and cop is that one of them is definitely a fascist.
I think this one was way, way over the top, and shows exactly the kind of politically motivated leftist spew we are dealing with here, placed right into the middle of the game they are trying to sell to gamers. The company that produces this game is SoulMuppet Publishing. This was a HUGE turnoff to me and might prevent me from spending over $215 to purchase all the materials for it, as I had planned to do previously.
Wow. How to break down how incredibly WRONG the author of this game is, in regards to history:
1. it's obvious he comes from the Marxist school of history, which is categorically incorrect. Reason why would be a whole thread on it's own, and beyond the scope of discussion.
but to get into the stupidly categorized bits...
2.
Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
3.
Quotethe early 90s and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away.
: even more so than the previous statement I covered, this is just pure fiction. Nobody but a leftist boob would call this decade the "Decade of Greed". What a preposterous statement. So to a Marxist, the decades following the post-cold war era, where the obvious failed utopias of Marxist-Leninist-Moaist ideology crumbled to dust, which led to one of the greatest economic booms of the 20th century since the end of both world wars, is a decade of greed. If that's the case, then we need to shut down every McDonald's, Starbucks, and any other Western company east of the Volga. I'm sure folks in Poland and Romania are pining for the glory days of standing in line for toilet paper and bread. Right...
4.
QuoteThough these decades have an exciting look and feel, remember that they were times of great socioeconomic inequality, injustice for women, people of colour, LGBTQ+ people and people living with disabilities, among others."
Herein is the biggest lie the author promotes. More propaganda perpetuated by Marxist historians. Anyone who has any skills in research can easily debunk the statement the author made. Being the true believer he his, his cognitive reasoning skills have atrophied, and drank the Kool-Aid.
I could have gone into great detail how stupid the author's statement is, but for those of you who have a clear understanding and knowledge of history don't need me to bore you. IT's all out there, easy to find, and yet the author wishes you to believe that this era was nothing more than a era of bigotry, racism, sexism, and whatever -ism he thinks. The problem is, yes they existed. Past tense. They were dealt with in those years with laws and social movements. The LIE he perpetuates is that they were never confronted and STILL exist. Did Selma Parks bus trip not exists? MLK's march on DC? The equal rights for women movement?
The author is a disingenuous hack and a grifter for the left. Nothing more. I'm sure he'll find a market for his "game". There's always gullible blue-haired dipshits to fleece for money. IMO, he's just another soy-boy who is being a grifter, is really that unaware of history, OR truly believes the bullshit he's shoveling. That fact he has the gall to put this out and have people pay for it, makes me think this jackass buys into his own bullshit.
EDIT: I'm not even going to go into the "fascist" statement. That's just a childish view of the world. Period.
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
2.Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
Late stage capitalism was initially defined to begin immediately after WWI, so technically all of those periods are late stage capitalism. But like all groups that declare the end of the world is coming, socialists have to keep moving up the dates when it frustratingly fails to happen.
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
EDIT: I'm not even going to go into the "fascist" statement. That's just a childish view of the world. Period.
The guy who came up with this idea of stages of capitalism, including late stage capitalism, (Werner Sombart) was a Nazi sympathiser.
Can they go on the Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs as red with a note that they use Nazi terminology, I wonder?
Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 01, 2024, 10:43:34 AMAnother triumph of style over substance, how is "sad" on the table for space adventures tone?
If you want a new space game that can do Firefly and Bebop as well as Farscape, Lexx, and Outlaw Star check out Bound to None. No political lectures, no pronoun shittery, it even tells you not to use safety tools. And it's free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/486153/bound-to-none
Nice! Grabbing it to check out now. I like BRP but other than my own himebrew game I've been working on I have yet to see a setting for it that I liked.
Nope. Dice ladders suck ass IMHO.
[/quote]
why tho
It seems like a violation of the setting premise to assume that police in general are corrupt. Cowboy Bebop specifically isn't out to portray cops as negative. Even Firefly which does have an angle in showing the Alliance negatively doesn't pretend like all law enforcement everywhere is fundamentally corrupt.
Quote from: Zelen on September 01, 2024, 04:39:49 PMIt seems like a violation of the setting premise to assume that police in general are corrupt. Cowboy Bebop specifically isn't out to portray cops as negative. Even Firefly which does have an angle in showing the Alliance negatively doesn't pretend like all law enforcement everywhere is fundamentally corrupt.
The Sheriff in Train Job springs to mind.
Yes, these excerpts read like current day woke buffoonery. The only good thing about it is that these useful idiots wear it on their sleeves now.
Quote from: Krazz on September 01, 2024, 02:01:20 PMQuote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
2.Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
Late stage capitalism was initially defined to begin immediately after WWI, so technically all of those periods are late stage capitalism. But like all groups that declare the end of the world is coming, socialists have to keep moving up the dates when it frustratingly fails to happen.
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
EDIT: I'm not even going to go into the "fascist" statement. That's just a childish view of the world. Period.
The guy who came up with this idea of stages of capitalism, including late stage capitalism, (Werner Sombart) was a Nazi sympathiser.
Can they go on the Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs as red with a note that they use Nazi terminology, I wonder?
Which confirms even more that the author of the game is not only a Marxist boob, but an idiotic Marxist boob.
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 07:47:07 PMQuote from: Krazz on September 01, 2024, 02:01:20 PMQuote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
2.Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
Late stage capitalism was initially defined to begin immediately after WWI, so technically all of those periods are late stage capitalism. But like all groups that declare the end of the world is coming, socialists have to keep moving up the dates when it frustratingly fails to happen.
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PM...
EDIT: I'm not even going to go into the "fascist" statement. That's just a childish view of the world. Period.
The guy who came up with this idea of stages of capitalism, including late stage capitalism, (Werner Sombart) was a Nazi sympathiser.
Can they go on the Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs as red with a note that they use Nazi terminology, I wonder?
Which confirms even more that the author of the game is not only a Marxist boob, but an idiotic Marxist boob.
Is there any other kind?
It's always amusing to see someone so wrong in calling someone else wrong? I mean, I'm disappointed in the game's extremity, but as much as my friend-group liked Cowboy Bebop in the late 90s when we ran out of Babylon 5 to watch, I don't think I'm in the target market. Still, facts and history matter:
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PMWow. How to break down how incredibly WRONG the author of this game is, in regards to history:
...
but to get into the stupidly categorized bits...
2.
Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion: "The post–World War II economic expansion, also known as the postwar economic boom or the Golden Age of Capitalism" - with citations to historians from 1992.
Quote3.
Quotethe early 90s and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away.
: even more so than the previous statement I covered, this is just pure fiction. Nobody but a leftist boob would call this decade the "Decade of Greed". What a preposterous statement. So to a Marxist, the decades following the post-cold war era, where the obvious failed utopias of Marxist-Leninist-Moaist ideology crumbled to dust, which led to one of the greatest economic booms of the 20th century since the end of both world wars, is a decade of greed. If that's the case, then we need to shut down every McDonald's, Starbucks, and any other Western company east of the Volga. I'm sure folks in Poland and Romania are pining for the glory days of standing in line for toilet paper and bread. Right...
Try "Farber, David (2019). Crack: Rock Cocaine, Street Capitalism, and the Decade of Greed. Cambridge University Press." Or any of the other many hits for this phrase that Google will happily provide for you if you type "define decade of greed" into your favourite search box. If you want someone who's not "lefty Marxist" try the National Review in 2004: "The 1980s were a "Decade of Greed." There were, no doubt, individual incidents of conspicuous consumption and selfish disregard for the welfare of others."
The quotes the OP calls out suggests that this game is probably too slanted for me to be comfortable reworking it for my table. I didn't buy Salvage Union for that reason. And I'm avoiding D&D 6e for the same reason from the opposite side, even though it might be reworkable. But "Hurr Durr Marxist" isn't a critique of game quality OR of politics.
I appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
Regarding the cop jab in the feat description. I remember back when all the ACAB stuff really started taking off for the first time, around the death of saint Floyd, I went to several BLM related websites because I wanted to know what their alternatives to policing were. Their articles and FAQs were heavy with progressive and marxist pseudo-intellectual babble, but if you can discern meaning from it, you find out that they still want policing, just police that are trained to enforce laws through a marxist political lens. They don't call it policing though of course. Some of the more radical ones wanted race based policing, "marginalized communities" could only be policed by someone from the same community. So the next time you hear any anti-cop rhetoric from a marxist, remember that they aren't upset at police corruption and brutality, they're upset the cops aren't marxist commissars instead.
Also sorry I can't provide any specific examples, it was years ago and I didn't think to save a link at that time. Some of the organizations are probably defunct by now I think.
"Decade of Greed" is used for the nasty Reaganite 1980s not the lovely fluffy Bill Clinton 1990s.
Virtue signaling 101.
"from faded 1950s and 60s "Golden
Age of Capitalism" looks to the landscapes of the early 90s
and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy
paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away."
Late-stage capitalism? So are we having a communist revolution right now?
Quote from: S'mon on September 02, 2024, 04:44:16 AM"Decade of Greed" is used for the nasty Reaganite 1980s not the lovely fluffy Bill Clinton 1990s.
Yes that's how I understand it too. BTW I'm pretty sure if you ask people like this, they will not say Bill Clinton was lovely. More like Clinton = misguided, Reagan = EVIL.
The strangest contradiction in woke TTRPGs is the idea of telling players how they are suppose to RP. The real beauty of RP in my mind is the way players take on both individual challenges and the setting as a whole. Also, it completely legitimate to explore a setting to play as various strata of a culture.
The only thing I can think is that they are trying to force a type of thinking as a form of indoctrination. Their handbook for how to form a perfect society clearly outlines mass murder and genocide as a required step. Fuck them.
Quote from: Trond on September 02, 2024, 08:21:03 AM"from faded 1950s and 60s "Golden
Age of Capitalism" looks to the landscapes of the early 90s
and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy
paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away."
Late-stage capitalism? So are we having a communist revolution right now?
Yes, we are seeing the beginning efforts of the revolution in the US right now. That's what BLM and AntiFa is part of.
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMthis isn't Twitter.
Here's why dice ladders are good:
1. BtN is made for sandboxing, tools like the dice ladder help you give bonus/penalty to all kinds of things in a regular way, from armor values to poison potency.
2. Gives GM and player a way to quickly eyeball damage/armor values. If you are facing a guy with a gun 4 steps above your armor, you know it's a dangerous fight.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 01, 2024, 10:11:07 AMSo its "Soyboy Bebop" then.
Close the thread boys, no one's topping this one.
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMI appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
Sure!
I first encountered dice ladders with Alternity. In the rules, dice ladders look like a novel way to use all of the dice in your collection in game. In actual play, I found them to be time consuming and cumbersome because you end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll and it just doubles when you have opposing rolls. It is the antithesis of a system designed for fast cinematic action or definitive results IMHO.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMQuote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMI appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
Sure!
I first encountered dice ladders with Alternity. In the rules, dice ladders look like a novel way to use all of the dice in your collection in game. In actual play, I found them to be time consuming and cumbersome because you end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll and it just doubles when you have opposing rolls. It is the antithesis of a system designed for fast cinematic action or definitive results IMHO.
Question: Would you call Savage Worlds a dice ladder system? I generally do, because you improve your stats by upgrading the die type rolled, but it sounds like you're using it specifically for games where the die type you roll changes based on in-game circumstance.
Quote from: Nobleshield on September 01, 2024, 09:28:52 AMThe first part wasn't bad (subject matter and the like; I no longer consider that "woke" because there's a lot of weirdos playing RPGs now) but the next part was 100% virtue signaling woke crap, and the last solidified it as being an agenda.
Never heard of this and it seems that was for the best.
That part was very woke.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 02, 2024, 02:02:08 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMQuote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMI appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
Sure!
I first encountered dice ladders with Alternity. In the rules, dice ladders look like a novel way to use all of the dice in your collection in game. In actual play, I found them to be time consuming and cumbersome because you end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll and it just doubles when you have opposing rolls. It is the antithesis of a system designed for fast cinematic action or definitive results IMHO.
Question: Would you call Savage Worlds a dice ladder system? I generally do, because you improve your stats by upgrading the die type rolled, but it sounds like you're using it specifically for games where the die type you roll changes based on in-game circumstance.
On opposed rolls, yes. Normally you are trying to roll against a target number though, IIRC. I'm only very familiar with the Deadlands proto-Savage Worlds where you had to have what I consider a lot of extraneous crap just to play (like a deck of cards).
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMyou end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll
GM skill issue, Bound to None says not to do that. You have a base damage value for example 2d6 SMG. You put a mod on it that gives it +1 DL. It's now 2d8. You then do a flanking maneuver, and the GM gives you +1 DL for positioning. It's now 2d10. Instead of a flat +/-, you change you die roll. This only happens when it's either explicitly stated by a power/mod or given as a GM call per situation. The GM who would do caculation on the Dice Ladder would do the same with a flat bonus, going over the chart of +/- in game instead of just making a call.
Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 02, 2024, 02:56:36 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMyou end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll
GM skill issue, Bound to None says not to do that. You have a base damage value for example 2d6 SMG. You put a mod on it that gives it +1 DL. It's now 2d8. You then do a flanking maneuver, and the GM gives you +1 DL for positioning. It's now 2d10. Instead of a flat +/-, you change you die roll. This only happens when it's either explicitly stated by a power/mod or given as a GM call per situation. The GM who would do caculation on the Dice Ladder would do the same with a flat bonus, going over the chart of +/- in game instead of just making a call.
Obviously, our preferences in game mechanics differ.
EDIT: You didn't by any chance write Bound to None, did you?
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 03:06:55 PMQuote from: Hixanthrope on September 02, 2024, 02:56:36 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMyou end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll
GM skill issue, Bound to None says not to do that. You have a base damage value for example 2d6 SMG. You put a mod on it that gives it +1 DL. It's now 2d8. You then do a flanking maneuver, and the GM gives you +1 DL for positioning. It's now 2d10. Instead of a flat +/-, you change you die roll. This only happens when it's either explicitly stated by a power/mod or given as a GM call per situation. The GM who would do caculation on the Dice Ladder would do the same with a flat bonus, going over the chart of +/- in game instead of just making a call.
Obviously, our preferences in game mechanics differ.
EDIT: You didn't by any chance write Bound to None, did you?
In my Pulp game (and the games compatible with it I'm developing) I use a dice ladder, you get (or not) an extra die to roll with your d20 for certain tasks related with your attribute (it depends on what score you have on it) I shamelessly stole it from Flying Swords.
IF your attribute score increases then you might get an increase in said extra die (depends on what your new attribute score is).
It works sorta like advantage and feats combined.
It's very simple to grok since you ALWAYS roll the same extra die unless your attribute has increased enough to increase the die size, which goes from d2 to d12.
I think this helps simulate the Pulp protagonists AND main villains.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 02, 2024, 03:30:38 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 03:06:55 PMQuote from: Hixanthrope on September 02, 2024, 02:56:36 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMyou end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll
GM skill issue, Bound to None says not to do that. You have a base damage value for example 2d6 SMG. You put a mod on it that gives it +1 DL. It's now 2d8. You then do a flanking maneuver, and the GM gives you +1 DL for positioning. It's now 2d10. Instead of a flat +/-, you change you die roll. This only happens when it's either explicitly stated by a power/mod or given as a GM call per situation. The GM who would do caculation on the Dice Ladder would do the same with a flat bonus, going over the chart of +/- in game instead of just making a call.
Obviously, our preferences in game mechanics differ.
EDIT: You didn't by any chance write Bound to None, did you?
In my Pulp game (and the games compatible with it I'm developing) I use a dice ladder, you get (or not) an extra die to roll with your d20 for certain tasks related with your attribute (it depends on what score you have on it) I shamelessly stole it from Flying Swords.
IF your attribute score increases then you might get an increase in said extra die (depends on what your new attribute score is).
It works sorta like advantage and feats combined.
It's very simple to grok since you ALWAYS roll the same extra die unless your attribute has increased enough to increase the die size, which goes from d2 to d12.
I think this helps simulate the Pulp protagonists AND main villains.
Since I'm neither a fan of Pulp or dice ladders, I'm probably not your target audience for those games. My personal preferences differ. Best of luck, though.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 03:39:59 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on September 02, 2024, 03:30:38 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 03:06:55 PMQuote from: Hixanthrope on September 02, 2024, 02:56:36 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMyou end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll
GM skill issue, Bound to None says not to do that. You have a base damage value for example 2d6 SMG. You put a mod on it that gives it +1 DL. It's now 2d8. You then do a flanking maneuver, and the GM gives you +1 DL for positioning. It's now 2d10. Instead of a flat +/-, you change you die roll. This only happens when it's either explicitly stated by a power/mod or given as a GM call per situation. The GM who would do caculation on the Dice Ladder would do the same with a flat bonus, going over the chart of +/- in game instead of just making a call.
Obviously, our preferences in game mechanics differ.
EDIT: You didn't by any chance write Bound to None, did you?
In my Pulp game (and the games compatible with it I'm developing) I use a dice ladder, you get (or not) an extra die to roll with your d20 for certain tasks related with your attribute (it depends on what score you have on it) I shamelessly stole it from Flying Swords.
IF your attribute score increases then you might get an increase in said extra die (depends on what your new attribute score is).
It works sorta like advantage and feats combined.
It's very simple to grok since you ALWAYS roll the same extra die unless your attribute has increased enough to increase the die size, which goes from d2 to d12.
I think this helps simulate the Pulp protagonists AND main villains.
Since I'm neither a fan of Pulp or dice ladders, I'm probably not your target audience for those games. My personal preferences differ. Best of luck, though.
A shame since (not to tout my own horn) I think I'm doing a great job in modelling the characters, world, gadgets, monsters and villains.
Did a politics derail just get derailed by a game mechanics tangent?
I love this place. :D
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 02:32:34 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on September 02, 2024, 02:02:08 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 01:51:53 PMQuote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMI appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
Sure!
I first encountered dice ladders with Alternity. In the rules, dice ladders look like a novel way to use all of the dice in your collection in game. In actual play, I found them to be time consuming and cumbersome because you end up spending a lot of game time trying to figure out how far up or down the dice ladder you must move to find the right spot for a roll and it just doubles when you have opposing rolls. It is the antithesis of a system designed for fast cinematic action or definitive results IMHO.
Question: Would you call Savage Worlds a dice ladder system? I generally do, because you improve your stats by upgrading the die type rolled, but it sounds like you're using it specifically for games where the die type you roll changes based on in-game circumstance.
On opposed rolls, yes. Normally you are trying to roll against a target number though, IIRC. I'm only very familiar with the Deadlands proto-Savage Worlds where you had to have what I consider a lot of extraneous crap just to play (like a deck of cards).
I believe the only thing the cards stuck around for was the initiative system, so that's easy to just ignore and slot in your system of choice. I don't think SWADE has many opposed rolls (I'm sure tenbones can correct me if wrong), but even then it seems like it shouldn't be a problem. If both people know which dice they roll for X skill, seems like it should be the same as just knowing your modifiers. I get what you're saying for something like DCC where a single action type can move up and down the dice chain depending on the situation.
Thank you for making NOT buying this libtard crapass nonsense in book form a very easy decision.
Shame. I love the source material.
As for dice ladders, they are a perfectly fine mechanic, except as an Alternity & Earthdawn GM, I did NOT enjoy them in actual play. Why? Too fiddly and I didn't see what were gaining at the table.
To me, dice mechanics usually are the least interesting part of RPGs. I'm cool with them in board games or war games, but I really need RPG mechanics to fade into the background during actual play.
Quote from: Spinachcat on September 02, 2024, 11:43:28 PMAs for dice ladders, they are a perfectly fine mechanic, except as an Alternity & Earthdawn GM, I did NOT enjoy them in actual play. Why? Too fiddly and I didn't see what were gaining at the table.
As an Earthdawn fan and once GM, I love the setting but the dice step system always felt like a mechanic looking for an application.
Just have a look at the 'About Us' page for the company who publishes the game, Soulmuppet Publishing.
https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us (https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us)
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 02, 2024, 03:47:31 AMIt's always amusing to see someone so wrong in calling someone else wrong? I mean, I'm disappointed in the game's extremity, but as much as my friend-group liked Cowboy Bebop in the late 90s when we ran out of Babylon 5 to watch, I don't think I'm in the target market. Still, facts and history matter:
Quote from: blackstone on September 01, 2024, 12:26:04 PMWow. How to break down how incredibly WRONG the author of this game is, in regards to history:
...
but to get into the stupidly categorized bits...
2.
Quote1950s and 60s "Golden Age of Capitalism"
: I have never heard of this period referred to in such a way by any historian, or in any historical context. In regards to the 20th century, you can break things down into pre-ww2 and post-ww2 eras, which there are distinct differences when analyzed. the 50s and 60s are definitely post-ww2. The details of which can be easily researched and can quite easily debunked the juvenile, simplistic, and Marxist historical view the author holds.
Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion: "The post–World War II economic expansion, also known as the postwar economic boom or the Golden Age of Capitalism" - with citations to historians from 1992.
Quote3.
Quotethe early 90s and the closing of the "Decade of Greed," when the glossy paintwork of late-stage capitalism began to chip away.
: even more so than the previous statement I covered, this is just pure fiction. Nobody but a leftist boob would call this decade the "Decade of Greed". What a preposterous statement. So to a Marxist, the decades following the post-cold war era, where the obvious failed utopias of Marxist-Leninist-Moaist ideology crumbled to dust, which led to one of the greatest economic booms of the 20th century since the end of both world wars, is a decade of greed. If that's the case, then we need to shut down every McDonald's, Starbucks, and any other Western company east of the Volga. I'm sure folks in Poland and Romania are pining for the glory days of standing in line for toilet paper and bread. Right...
Try "Farber, David (2019). Crack: Rock Cocaine, Street Capitalism, and the Decade of Greed. Cambridge University Press." Or any of the other many hits for this phrase that Google will happily provide for you if you type "define decade of greed" into your favourite search box. If you want someone who's not "lefty Marxist" try the National Review in 2004: "The 1980s were a "Decade of Greed." There were, no doubt, individual incidents of conspicuous consumption and selfish disregard for the welfare of others."
The quotes the OP calls out suggests that this game is probably too slanted for me to be comfortable reworking it for my table. I didn't buy Salvage Union for that reason. And I'm avoiding D&D 6e for the same reason from the opposite side, even though it might be reworkable. But "Hurr Durr Marxist" isn't a critique of game quality OR of politics.
I appreciate the poster who pointed out that the suggested replacement uses dice ladders, although a little more context would be nice - I don't think I've ever played a game with a dice ladder; the second or third time you post "dice ladders suck" you might want to explain why you think so? FFS this isn't Twitter.
No real historian would use such loaded terms as "Age of Greed" or "Golden Age of Capitalism", which is obvious. It's bias and any good historian worth his degree knows that you must view history from a unbiased stance. The commonly accepted terms are "pre-WWII", "post-WWII", and so on. Your dig at me, though try as you might, falls flat. Because those of us who are actually in the field and studied would know that touting such terms as "Age of Greed" are for one thing only : to sell books.
Quote from: S'mon on September 02, 2024, 04:44:16 AM"Decade of Greed" is used for the nasty Reaganite 1980s not the lovely fluffy Bill Clinton 1990s.
Again, it's a biased term and not a matter of fact.
Quote from: Batjon on September 03, 2024, 05:56:08 AMJust have a look at the 'About Us' page for the company who publishes the game, Soulmuppet Publishing.
https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us (https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us)
Welp, that was vomit inducing.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 03, 2024, 08:57:03 AMQuote from: Batjon on September 03, 2024, 05:56:08 AMJust have a look at the 'About Us' page for the company who publishes the game, Soulmuppet Publishing.
https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us (https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us)
Welp, that was vomit inducing.
I feel sorry for the cat. It's probably the only sane member of the whole business and it has to deal with... that.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 03, 2024, 10:15:52 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 03, 2024, 08:57:03 AMQuote from: Batjon on September 03, 2024, 05:56:08 AMJust have a look at the 'About Us' page for the company who publishes the game, Soulmuppet Publishing.
https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us (https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us)
Welp, that was vomit inducing.
I feel sorry for the cat. It's probably the only sane member of the whole business and it has to deal with... that.
this is why
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/EHak5eV_md.jpg)
{bi, polyam, nonbinary} aka the indecisive idiot
marketing & events @ SoulMuppet.
sometimes I draw things.
Wtf does that even mean...I hate you all for my having read any of that.
You know it's funny to me, all these modern day ultra leftists games that want to present all Police Officers as corrupt and Fascists.
Yet the funniest thing, is not even the Cyberpunk Genre goes with the idea of ACAB. Hell, the Cyberpunk Game, all of it's editions even LET you play a "Badge".
The Cops in Cyberpunk: EdgeRunners and Cyberpunk 2077 are presented as underfunded, overworked, and outgunned, much like the Detroit Police Department in Robocop.
There are supposed to be corrupt and Fascistic Police, but the regular officer on the street is just a guy trying to survive, make a marginal difference in the world and go home to his family alive at the end of the day.
I don't know why the Cyberpunk Games and Genre have managed to avoid the Leftist ACAB stuff when it infests every other game they make with a modern setting.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 01, 2024, 08:35:14 AM"Our goal is to tell the stories of those marginalised in this
setting, not glorify their marginalisation"
Meh... Don't tell me what stories I can tell at my own feking table. Especially in a silly elf-game of pure imagination.
As soon as I see "stories of those marginalised" or some variant I'm tapping out. I already know the rest and know I'm not only not the target audience, but the target of the target audience.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 03, 2024, 10:15:52 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 03, 2024, 08:57:03 AMQuote from: Batjon on September 03, 2024, 05:56:08 AMJust have a look at the 'About Us' page for the company who publishes the game, Soulmuppet Publishing.
https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us (https://usa.soulmuppet-store.co.uk/pages/about-us)
Welp, that was vomit inducing.
I feel sorry for the cat. It's probably the only sane member of the whole business and it has to deal with... that.
As a hardcore cat person it breaks my heart I can't rescue cats from these kinds of fools. They're one MSNBC invocation from trying to make the cat vegan.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 03, 2024, 12:56:47 PMYou know it's funny to me, all these modern day ultra leftists games that want to present all Police Officers as corrupt and Fascists.
Yet the funniest thing, is not even the Cyberpunk Genre goes with the idea of ACAB. Hell, the Cyberpunk Game, all of it's editions even LET you play a "Badge".
The Cops in Cyberpunk: EdgeRunners and Cyberpunk 2077 are presented as underfunded, overworked, and outgunned, much like the Detroit Police Department in Robocop.
There are supposed to be corrupt and Fascistic Police, but the regular officer on the street is just a guy trying to survive, make a marginal difference in the world and go home to his family alive at the end of the day.
I don't know why the Cyberpunk Games and Genre have managed to avoid the Leftist ACAB stuff when it infests every other game they make with a modern setting.
Cyberpunk Red core book is fine, but Danger Gal Dossier had at least one hardcore SJW writer and it does have a fair bit of ACAB stuff. I ran a Cops campaign and had great fun with the Cop PCs blowing away the cop-murdering ACAB factions and their pink haired trans Furry allies. 🥹
Quote from: S'mon on September 03, 2024, 06:08:36 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on September 03, 2024, 12:56:47 PMYou know it's funny to me, all these modern day ultra leftists games that want to present all Police Officers as corrupt and Fascists.
Yet the funniest thing, is not even the Cyberpunk Genre goes with the idea of ACAB. Hell, the Cyberpunk Game, all of it's editions even LET you play a "Badge".
The Cops in Cyberpunk: EdgeRunners and Cyberpunk 2077 are presented as underfunded, overworked, and outgunned, much like the Detroit Police Department in Robocop.
There are supposed to be corrupt and Fascistic Police, but the regular officer on the street is just a guy trying to survive, make a marginal difference in the world and go home to his family alive at the end of the day.
I don't know why the Cyberpunk Games and Genre have managed to avoid the Leftist ACAB stuff when it infests every other game they make with a modern setting.
Cyberpunk Red core book is fine, but Danger Gal Dossier had at least one hardcore SJW writer and it does have a fair bit of ACAB stuff. I ran a Cops campaign and had great fun with the Cop PCs blowing away the cop-murdering ACAB factions and their pink haired trans Furry allies. 🥹
That's unfortunate, but not unexpected.
The guy behind Interface Zero also wanted to go ACAB with the 3.0 version of the game, but he actually got pushback on Kickstarter and reversed course. IIRC, one of the original campaign ideas in the book was to involve the PCs playing law enforcement characters, and he wanted to scrub that since obviously no decent person could work in such a profession.
I and a few others in my regular group backed this based on really liking Best Left Buried. That was a very tight little indie game with fun mechanics and we had a great time playing it. I would still recommend it to anyone looking for a rules light dungeon crawler, especially if you liked the video game Darkest Dungeon.
Orbital Blues went off the rails as the company seemed to pivot to woke.
Once we got our books I tried to run the game. We can always ignore the virtue signaling shit, but we ran into a lot a vaguely defined rules which ended up killing the enthusiasm. It is a shame as the skeleton of a decent game is there. I just don't have the time to flesh it out to make it worth playing more for us.
seems like politicking to me, with "virtue" signaling about how enlightened they think they are, denouncing the past (even virtues like the free market) while embracing the injustices and prejudices of today. I would avoid that publisher like the plague. Because this way of thinking is one.
I originally wrote disclaimers in my RPG, which grew shorter with each module. Mainly, because I was selling on DriveThru and without the warning, could have been cancelled for wrongthink. But I didn't use the disclaimer for making fringe political statements.
Quote from: Brand55 on September 03, 2024, 07:19:36 PMThe guy behind Interface Zero also wanted to go ACAB with the 3.0 version of the game, but he actually got pushback on Kickstarter and reversed course. IIRC, one of the original campaign ideas in the book was to involve the PCs playing law enforcement characters, and he wanted to scrub that since obviously no decent person could work in such a profession.
That's funny to me since I was the lead developer for Interface Zero 2.0, but understandable. Dave Jarvis (Head of Gun Metal Games, owner of the IP) was always very left leaning, and at the time I was doing writing on IZ 2.0 I was more left leaning too, but I had to hold him back a little from how much he wanted to present a progressive slant in the game.
We parted ways to do irreconcilable differences in development and I had nothing to do with 3.0
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 03, 2024, 09:10:35 PMThat's funny to me since I was the lead developer for Interface Zero 2.0, but understandable. Dave Jarvis (Head of Gun Metal Games, owner of the IP) was always very left leaning, and at the time I was doing writing on IZ 2.0 I was more left leaning too, but I had to hold him back a little from how much he wanted to present a progressive slant in the game.
We parted ways to do irreconcilable differences in development and I had nothing to do with 3.0
I have 2.0 and think it's a great game, though I really wish he'd followed through on the Malmart Catalog and space expansion rather than spend all his time porting the game to every system under the sun. Jarvis' biases definitely shine through in the setting; I sadly wasn't surprised to see another game where the ultimate bad guys are us evil, bigoted Southerners. I half-expected him to come right out and rename the NAC as the New Confederacy in the current edition.
Quote from: rgalex on September 03, 2024, 07:21:00 PMI and a few others in my regular group backed this based on really liking Best Left Buried. That was a very tight little indie game with fun mechanics and we had a great time playing it. I would still recommend it to anyone looking for a rules light dungeon crawler, especially if you liked the video game Darkest Dungeon.
Orbital Blues went off the rails as the company seemed to pivot to woke.
Once we got our books I tried to run the game. We can always ignore the virtue signaling shit, but we ran into a lot a vaguely defined rules which ended up killing the enthusiasm. It is a shame as the skeleton of a decent game is there. I just don't have the time to flesh it out to make it worth playing more for us.
For me, this is the biggest sin of left leaning game makers. Seeing lefty politics front and center is almost always a signal to me that the game itself is poorly made. Those that aren't are almost always just setting material for a good game, and usually the original setting is better.
Quote from: Batjon on September 01, 2024, 07:44:07 AMCrooked Establishments:
There are many types of organization you can be in Too Deep with: criminal gangs, mercenary companies, military units, police departments, corporations. In Orbital Blues, the only difference between a gang member and cop is that one of them is definitely a fascist.
Talk about enabling broken stairs. Still find the left's constant idealization of criminal thugs and terrorists over those who oppose them deeply concerning. None of these idiots have any experience dealing with such individuals, and they'd be eaten alive on the spot if they tried.
Quote from: blackstone on September 03, 2024, 07:56:26 AMNo real historian would use such loaded terms as "Age of Greed" or "Golden Age of Capitalism", which is obvious. It's bias and any good historian worth his degree knows that you must view history from a unbiased stance. The commonly accepted terms are "pre-WWII", "post-WWII", and so on. Your dig at me, though try as you might, falls flat. Because those of us who are actually in the field and studied would know that touting such terms as "Age of Greed" are for one thing only : to sell books.
Argue from authority much? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22decade+of+greed%22&btnG= has > 1000 hits and plenty of them are from what look like peer-reviewed papers rather than books; but even in scholarly books rather than popular books I'd take it.
Or https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=decade+of+greed&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 - it was a really common term around '93 for referring to the previous decade, even though it's used less now.
My PhD isn't in history (it's computer science, thanks, successfully defended in 2004), but I'm married to a historian who's done a lot more publication than I have in the last decade so I'll take your unsupported assertion with a grain of salt.
So here you've moved the goalposts - you decried the term and said "nobody but a leftist boob" would use it, and used that to assert that the author was obviously "Marxist", now you're saying "good historians" wouldn't use it in scholarly writing? Which is, pretty clearly, false - or assuming the consequent, if you're going to say that definitionally none of those historians are good.
So, this game uses some widely-known 20th century historical references to quickly sketch its setting. Even if I don't like its political leanings, that's awesome - far better than the anachronistic pap we get from recent 5e, right? Or does WotC have a summary somewhere that I've missed?
What other games or settings have a good concise 2-paragraph summary like that? It would *really help* me set player expectations to be able to do that for fantasy worlds, when I'm trying to run OSRishy for new-school players.
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 04, 2024, 12:00:06 PMQuote from: blackstone on September 03, 2024, 07:56:26 AMNo real historian would use such loaded terms as "Age of Greed" or "Golden Age of Capitalism", which is obvious. It's bias and any good historian worth his degree knows that you must view history from a unbiased stance. The commonly accepted terms are "pre-WWII", "post-WWII", and so on. Your dig at me, though try as you might, falls flat. Because those of us who are actually in the field and studied would know that touting such terms as "Age of Greed" are for one thing only : to sell books.
Argue from authority much? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22decade+of+greed%22&btnG= has > 1000 hits and plenty of them are from what look like peer-reviewed papers rather than books; but even in scholarly books rather than popular books I'd take it.
Or https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=decade+of+greed&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 - it was a really common term around '93 for referring to the previous decade, even though it's used less now.
My PhD isn't in history (it's computer science, thanks, successfully defended in 2004), but I'm married to a historian who's done a lot more publication than I have in the last decade so I'll take your unsupported assertion with a grain of salt.
So here you've moved the goalposts - you decried the term and said "nobody but a leftist boob" would use it, and used that to assert that the author was obviously "Marxist", now you're saying "good historians" wouldn't use it in scholarly writing? Which is, pretty clearly, false - or assuming the consequent, if you're going to say that definitionally none of those historians are good.
So, this game uses some widely-known 20th century historical references to quickly sketch its setting. Even if I don't like its political leanings, that's awesome - far better than the anachronistic pap we get from recent 5e, right? Or does WotC have a summary somewhere that I've missed?
What other games or settings have a good concise 2-paragraph summary like that? It would *really help* me set player expectations to be able to do that for fantasy worlds, when I'm trying to run OSRishy for new-school players.
OK :)
A popular catchphrase of the 80s was "greed is good", from a popular Michael Douglas film. Consumerism exploded in that decade, it was the origin of Black Friday mania, Saturday Morning Cartoons as toyline ads, designer clothing brands for mass markets, etc. It was referred to as the Decade of Greed even during the decade itself.
The big difference is that people at the time didn't (on the whole) conflate consumerism with capitalism as concepts.
Meanwhile in the 70s and 80s there was a massive amount of rose-tinted nostalgia for the 1950s. 50s themed restuarants were omnipresent, nostalgia driven 50s films and TV were staples of pop culture. The 50s were treated as a kind of "golden age" of Americana, but again there was no association with that and capitalism.
Framing those zeitgeists, for lack of a better term, in the context of "capitalism" is most definitely a "Marxist" viewpoint, though a lot of that is just repeated online culture sophomorisms by people with no deeper understanding of Marxist ideology.
Quote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 12:37:58 PMA popular catchphrase of the 80s was "greed is good", from a popular Michael Douglas film. Consumerism exploded in that decade, it was the origin of Black Friday mania, Saturday Morning Cartoons as toyline ads, designer clothing brands for mass markets, etc. It was referred to as the Decade of Greed even during the decade itself.
The big difference is that people at the time didn't (on the whole) conflate consumerism with capitalism as concepts.
Meanwhile in the 70s and 80s there was a massive amount of rose-tinted nostalgia for the 1950s. 50s themed restuarants were omnipresent, nostalgia driven 50s films and TV were staples of pop culture. The 50s were treated as a kind of "golden age" of Americana, but again there was no association with that and capitalism.
Framing those zeitgeists, for lack of a better term, in the context of "capitalism" is most definitely a "Marxist" viewpoint, though a lot of that is just repeated online culture sophomorisms by people with no deeper understanding of Marxist ideology.
Having been born in '71 and lived through the 70s and 80s I can tell you this:
-the 70s sucked: post-Vietnam US, we felt like losers. Inflation was on the rise. OPEC gas embargo. USSR invading Afghanistan. Iran hostage crisis. Watergate. Nixon resigning. The CIA hearings which revealed MK/Ultra. 3-Mile Island. That peanut farmer Carter was in the White House, who didn't know fuck all how to run the country. His big solution to the energy crisis? Put on a sweater! LOL! And the biggest crime of the decade?
DISCO.
-the 80s were an improvement: The Miracle on Ice (1980 US Hockey Team winning gold). Landslide victory Reagan over Carter, which was a no-brainer. Economic recovery from 1983 onward, which led to an economic boom for a vast majority of Americans. Reagan didn't kowtow to our adversaries, unlike Carter, who had no backbone. Cable TV became more prevalent, which fostered competition for your viewership, and created a wider variety of programming. the Iran/Contra affair. "Mr Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" Mtv premiered. Ya know, back when the channel ACTUALLY SHOWED MUSIC VIDEOS. Which leads me to the music: it was MUCH BETTER.
Again, having lived through both the 70s and 80s: 70s were shit, the 80s were alot better.
Quote from: blackstone on September 04, 2024, 01:08:08 PMQuote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 12:37:58 PMA popular catchphrase of the 80s was "greed is good", from a popular Michael Douglas film. Consumerism exploded in that decade, it was the origin of Black Friday mania, Saturday Morning Cartoons as toyline ads, designer clothing brands for mass markets, etc. It was referred to as the Decade of Greed even during the decade itself.
The big difference is that people at the time didn't (on the whole) conflate consumerism with capitalism as concepts.
Meanwhile in the 70s and 80s there was a massive amount of rose-tinted nostalgia for the 1950s. 50s themed restuarants were omnipresent, nostalgia driven 50s films and TV were staples of pop culture. The 50s were treated as a kind of "golden age" of Americana, but again there was no association with that and capitalism.
Framing those zeitgeists, for lack of a better term, in the context of "capitalism" is most definitely a "Marxist" viewpoint, though a lot of that is just repeated online culture sophomorisms by people with no deeper understanding of Marxist ideology.
Having been born in '71 and lived through the 70s and 80s I can tell you this:
-the 70s sucked: post-Vietnam US, we felt like losers. Inflation was on the rise. OPEC gas embargo. USSR invading Afghanistan. Iran hostage crisis. Watergate. Nixon resigning. The CIA hearings which revealed MK/Ultra. 3-Mile Island. That peanut farmer Carter was in the White House, who didn't know fuck all how to run the country. His big solution to the energy crisis? Put on a sweater! LOL! And the biggest crime of the decade?
DISCO.
-the 80s were an improvement: The Miracle on Ice (1980 US Hockey Team winning gold). Landslide victory Reagan over Carter, which was a no-brainer. Economic recovery from 1983 onward, which led to an economic boom for a vast majority of Americans. Reagan didn't kowtow to our adversaries, unlike Carter, who had no backbone. Cable TV became more prevalent, which fostered competition for your viewership, and created a wider variety of programming. the Iran/Contra affair. "Mr Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" Mtv premiered. Ya know, back when the channel ACTUALLY SHOWED MUSIC VIDEOS. Which leads me to the music: it was MUCH BETTER.
Again, having lived through both the 70s and 80s: 70s were shit, the 80s were alot better.
So, IOW...
Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs, H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I", and "The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana, goodbye
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu falls, "Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland
Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, "Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball
Starkweather homicide, children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly, Ben Hur, space monkey, mafia
Hula hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go
U2, Syngman Rhee, Payola and Kennedy
Chubby Checker, Psycho, Belgians in the Congo
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex
JFK – blown away, what else do I have to say?
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airline
Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore, China's under martial law
Rock and roller, cola wars, I can't take it anymore
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
But when we are gone
It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Quote from: blackstone on September 04, 2024, 01:08:08 PMMtv premiered. Ya know, back when the channel ACTUALLY SHOWED MUSIC VIDEOS.
Off topic, such as it is... This was the fate of alot of channels. Discovery, History, Sci-Fi, and many more.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 04, 2024, 10:43:53 PMQuote from: blackstone on September 04, 2024, 01:08:08 PMQuote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 12:37:58 PMA popular catchphrase of the 80s was "greed is good", from a popular Michael Douglas film. Consumerism exploded in that decade, it was the origin of Black Friday mania, Saturday Morning Cartoons as toyline ads, designer clothing brands for mass markets, etc. It was referred to as the Decade of Greed even during the decade itself.
The big difference is that people at the time didn't (on the whole) conflate consumerism with capitalism as concepts.
Meanwhile in the 70s and 80s there was a massive amount of rose-tinted nostalgia for the 1950s. 50s themed restuarants were omnipresent, nostalgia driven 50s films and TV were staples of pop culture. The 50s were treated as a kind of "golden age" of Americana, but again there was no association with that and capitalism.
Framing those zeitgeists, for lack of a better term, in the context of "capitalism" is most definitely a "Marxist" viewpoint, though a lot of that is just repeated online culture sophomorisms by people with no deeper understanding of Marxist ideology.
Having been born in '71 and lived through the 70s and 80s I can tell you this:
-the 70s sucked: post-Vietnam US, we felt like losers. Inflation was on the rise. OPEC gas embargo. USSR invading Afghanistan. Iran hostage crisis. Watergate. Nixon resigning. The CIA hearings which revealed MK/Ultra. 3-Mile Island. That peanut farmer Carter was in the White House, who didn't know fuck all how to run the country. His big solution to the energy crisis? Put on a sweater! LOL! And the biggest crime of the decade?
DISCO.
-the 80s were an improvement: The Miracle on Ice (1980 US Hockey Team winning gold). Landslide victory Reagan over Carter, which was a no-brainer. Economic recovery from 1983 onward, which led to an economic boom for a vast majority of Americans. Reagan didn't kowtow to our adversaries, unlike Carter, who had no backbone. Cable TV became more prevalent, which fostered competition for your viewership, and created a wider variety of programming. the Iran/Contra affair. "Mr Gorbechev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" Mtv premiered. Ya know, back when the channel ACTUALLY SHOWED MUSIC VIDEOS. Which leads me to the music: it was MUCH BETTER.
Again, having lived through both the 70s and 80s: 70s were shit, the 80s were alot better.
So, IOW...
Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs, H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I", and "The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana, goodbye
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu falls, "Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland
Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, "Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball
Starkweather homicide, children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly, Ben Hur, space monkey, mafia
Hula hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go
U2, Syngman Rhee, Payola and Kennedy
Chubby Checker, Psycho, Belgians in the Congo
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex
JFK – blown away, what else do I have to say?
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airline
Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore, China's under martial law
Rock and roller, cola wars, I can't take it anymore
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
But when we are gone
It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning, since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
B.B. Bumble and the Stingers, Mott the Hoople, Ray Charles Singers
Lonnie Mack and twangin' Eddie, here's my ring, we're goin' steady
Take it easy, take me higher, liar liar, house on fire
Loco-motion, Poco, Passion, Deeper Purple, Satisfaction
Baby baby, gotta gotta, gimme gimme, gettin' hotter
Sammy's cookin', Lesley Gore, Ritchie Valens, end of story
Mahavishnu, Fujiyama, Kama Sutra, Rama Lama
Richard Perry, Spector, Barry, Righteous, Archies, Nilsson Harry
Shimmy Shimmy Ko-Ko Bop it, Fats is back and Finger Poppin'
Life is a rock
But the radio rolled me
Gotta turn it up louder
So my DJ told me
FM, AM, hits are clickin' while the clock is tock-a-tickin'
Friends and Romans, salutations, Brenda and the Tabulations
Carly Simon, Noddy Holder, Rolling Stones, centerfolder
Johnny Cash and Johnny Rivers, can't stop now, I got the shivers
Mungo Jerry, Peter Peter, Paul and Paula, Mary Mary
Dr. John the Nightly Tripper, Doris Day and Jack the Ripper
Gotta go so, gotta swelter, Leon Russell, Gimme Shelter
Miracles in Smokey places, slide guitars and Fender basses
Mushroom omelet, Bonnie Bramlett, Wilson Pickett, stomp and kick it
Life is a rock
But the radio
Life is a rock
But the radio,
Woo-woo-woo
Arthur Janov primal screamin', Hawkins Jay and Dale and Ronnie
Kukla, Fran and Norman Okla, Denver John and Osmond Donny
J.J. Cale and ZZ Top and L.L. Bean and De De Dinah
David Bowie, Steely Dan, sing it prouder, C.C. Rider
Edgar Winter, Joanie Sommers, Ides of March, Johnny Thunders
Eric Clapton, pedal wah-wah, Stephen Foster, doo-dah, doo-dah
Good Vibrations, Help Me Rhonda, Surfer Girl and Little Honda
Tighter tighter, honey honey, sugar sugar, yummy yummy
CBS and Warner Brothers, RCA and all the others
Life is a rock
But the radio rolled me
Gotta turn it up louder
So my DJ told me
Life is a rock
But the radio rolled me
At the end of my rainbow
Lies a golden oldie