Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AMThen WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.

That's hardly the same thing, but if that thought keeps you warm...

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 01:43:14 PMThat's hardly the same thing, but if that thought keeps you warm...

It is the same thing, but keep living in denial, if that's what keeps you warm...

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.

Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.

Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"

WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.

cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit

You guys will never shake your victim mentality. Snow Flakes, all the way down.

Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.

Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.

Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"

WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.

cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit

In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.

Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.

Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.

Shoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.

Quote from: M2A0 on November 12, 2024, 04:22:57 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.

Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.

Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"

WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.

cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit

In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.

Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.

Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.

Shoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.

Don't think it's for anyone, given how all the art is still diversified AI style slop.

Quote from: M2A0 on November 12, 2024, 04:22:57 PMShoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.

Meanwhile on ESPN 8 The Ocho...

"It appears that WoTC is going to alienate the majority of the RPG community and focus on blue-haired psychopaths by introducing more DEI into their products!"

"It's a bold strategy Cotton! Let's see if it pays off for 'em..."

Personally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.

Quote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.

You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.

Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.

Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.

Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.

You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.

Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.

Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.

Except there's little to no evidence that such an audience exists.  WotC has been caught fudging numbers and using misleading verbiage when it comes to their "successes" so far.  Ignoring the woke infiltration of the perceived industry leader (notice I said "perceived") is the same as condoning it.  I don't know where this idea arose that consumers shouldn't voice their opinions to producers (actually, I do; it comes from people who like the direction of movement, but know they are in the minority, hoping to buy enough time to squelch all opposition), but it is the opposite of everything that once made the market economy the most effective economic force in history.  Retailers want to make money off of customers; customers want to buy the products they want from producers.  It seems like frank and honest feedback would be beneficial to both.  Only those who wish to warp economic structures into a command economy could assert that producers should ignore what customers want, and customers should be forced to buy what producers want them to buy. 

Only a foolish businessman would willingly alienate the majority of customers for a smaller minority, in the hopes that the minority could force the majority to change tastes.  So, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PM

Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.

You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.

Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.

Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.

Except there's little to no evidence that such an audience exists.  WotC has been caught fudging numbers and using misleading verbiage when it comes to their "successes" so far.  Ignoring the woke infiltration of the perceived industry leader (notice I said "perceived") is the same as condoning it.  I don't know where this idea arose that consumers shouldn't voice their opinions to producers (actually, I do; it comes from people who like the direction of movement, but know they are in the minority, hoping to buy enough time to squelch all opposition), but it is the opposite of everything that once made the market economy the most effective economic force in history.  Retailers want to make money off of customers; customers want to buy the products they want from producers.  It seems like frank and honest feedback would be beneficial to both.  Only those who wish to warp economic structures into a command economy could assert that producers should ignore what customers want, and customers should be forced to buy what producers want them to buy. 

Only a foolish businessman would willingly alienate the majority of customers for a smaller minority, in the hopes that the minority could force the majority to change tastes.  So, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

If that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 09:26:45 AMIf that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.

So it has come to pass: D&D is the McDonald's of RPGs.

Quote from: blackstone on November 14, 2024, 12:12:00 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 09:26:45 AMIf that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.

So it has come to pass: D&D is the McDonald's of RPGs.

Always has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.

  Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.

  Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.

There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!

If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!

Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.

Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.

All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 02:18:45 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.

  Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.

There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.

The gatekeepers failed us all /s?