The Greyhawk coverage is only 28 pages (plus a detachable map of the Flanaess), but it's still more coverage than Greyhawk has had for 20 years. I'm fairly familiar with Greyhawk, and little seems to be changed from what I remember (it's definately pre-Wars and the Great Kingdom hasn't fractured yet). Perhaps the only change that immediately jumped out at me is that, while the Pomarj is still filled with bandits and marauders, it doesn't seem to mention that they're humanoids (IIRC, there were both humans and lots of orcs in Pomarj).
The Pamarj used to be filled with maurauding orcs but now they are all taking a siesta.
They also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
I'm most familiar with the RPGA Guide to Greyhawk (1999-ish I think). Which nations changed leaders?
I'm heading back to work, but here's a few,
Dyvers Magister, Greyhawk Librarian, Highfolk mayor, the leaders of the Horned society, Perrenland, Shield Lands, Verbobonc, the South Province, Almor, Idee, Irongate, etc. etc. Honestly quite a lot of them have been changed.
I'm not familiar with the RPGA Guide to know how much that changed from '83.
Many are name changes, some are race swaps (Dragonborn, actual dragons, etc.), some are gender swaps.
I don't like that they renamed Scarlet Brotherhood to Scarlet Order because "brotherhood" is apparently bad now. The other renames I get, since Blackmoor they probably couldn't use for legal reasons (but at least "Arn" is a nod to Arneson so it's not erasure), Caliphate has specific connotations (also a terrorist org uses it IIRC), and Paynim is literally "heathen" so renaming those and the barbarian tribes to use their actual names (which were in the old box anyway) isn't a big deal to me.
If they apparently gender or race swapped leaders from the original though that's a huge red flag.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 03:00:28 AMPerhaps the only change that immediately jumped out at me is that, while the Pomarj is still filled with bandits and marauders, it doesn't seem to mention that they're humanoids (IIRC, there were both humans and lots of orcs in Pomarj).
Orcs of the Pomarj was some saying in Greyhawk I came across. Probably the World of Gryhawk boxed set?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 06, 2024, 12:35:14 PMThe Pamarj used to be filled with maurauding orcs but now they are all taking a siesta.
Nah, thats Red Steel. aheh.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 01:31:45 PMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
I'm most familiar with the RPGA Guide to Greyhawk (1999-ish I think). Which nations changed leaders?
In the WOG there were only 2 female leaders of nations noted.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 06, 2024, 03:27:37 PMIf they apparently gender or race swapped leaders from the original though that's a huge red flag.
They did change a few to species that are presented in the 2024 PHB. For example, the librarian is now a dragonborn. I don't see this as a "huge red flag" but I'm not looking for reasons to be offended, and IMO these changes hardly impact the play of the game other than letting players know that these species exist among the NPCs of the world (the art has a few dragonborn in the background too).
Quote from: Omega on November 06, 2024, 04:11:54 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 01:31:45 PMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
I'm most familiar with the RPGA Guide to Greyhawk (1999-ish I think). Which nations changed leaders?
In the WOG there were only 2 female leaders of nations noted.
The Queen of Celene and...um...who else?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 04:21:44 PMQuote from: Omega on November 06, 2024, 04:11:54 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 01:31:45 PMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
I'm most familiar with the RPGA Guide to Greyhawk (1999-ish I think). Which nations changed leaders?
In the WOG there were only 2 female leaders of nations noted.
The Queen of Celene and...um...who else?
County of Urnst
Her Noble Brilliancy, the Countess Belissica of Urnst
Nations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
I'll stick to my '83 boxed set.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 01:31:45 PMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
I'm most familiar with the RPGA Guide to Greyhawk (1999-ish I think). Which nations changed leaders?
2001.
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 05:28:28 PMNations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
Wow, that's insane. I hate woke D&D.
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 05:28:28 PMNations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
That's a long list. How many faction leaders to they name in 28 pages?
Three tables, broken up by region.
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 10:44:27 PMThree tables, broken up by region.
Five tables, but some are shorter than others.
Dude, it was Arneson, Laofka and Gygax's world. By the time 2E came out, they were all gone. What TSR wrote with the Iuz was is not something I'd want. I really preferred the World of Greyhawk boxed set and I'd rather WotC go back to that setting and work with the countries and political alliances.
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 05:28:28 PMNations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
Given the 2024 Greyhawk is supposed to be back to the original 1E 576 version based on the map this is a HUGE yikes, since the gold box set who the rulers were in that time period. I was fine (although I didn't like it) with them changing stuff with the wars/from the ashes/Living Greyhawk eras since those were in the future. But this is like bringing back pre-Time of Troubles Forgotten Realms and willy-nilly changing races and genders and shit for established rulers.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 07, 2024, 02:25:31 AMDude, it was Arneson, Laofka and Gygax's world. By the time 2E came out, they were all gone. What TSR wrote with the Iuz was is not something I'd want. I really preferred the World of Greyhawk boxed set and I'd rather WotC go back to that setting and work with the countries and political alliances.
If you're mean you like the setting before the Greyhawk Wars, then you're in luck because the 2024 Greyhawk content is set before those take place. Several of the growing political alliances (and feuds) are mentioned.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 07, 2024, 06:32:37 AMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 05:28:28 PMNations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
Given the 2024 Greyhawk is supposed to be back to the original 1E 576 version based on the map this is a HUGE yikes, since the gold box set who the rulers were in that time period. I was fine (although I didn't like it) with them changing stuff with the wars/from the ashes/Living Greyhawk eras since those were in the future. But this is like bringing back pre-Time of Troubles Forgotten Realms and willy-nilly changing races and genders and shit for established rulers.
How many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2024, 04:20:54 PM<snip>
and IMO these changes hardly impact the play of the game other than letting players know that these species exist among the NPCs of the world (the art has a few dragonborn in the background too).
How many times do we have to point this out? If it didn't impact the play of the game they wouldn't have made the changes.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
No female gamer has ever refused to play a game because there weren't enough female NPCs in the source material. In fact, if this is your belief then wouldn't putting lots of female NPCs in the game mean that fewer men would play it? Or does this just work one way?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
WOTC is free to use their vast resources and creative genius to create a new setting that is 100% inclusive and full of transgender Dr. Doolittle races, and whatever else they want. They won't do that because its easier to just crap all over IP that they already own.
My opinion: stick to the 1980 folio or the 1983 boxed set. That's Greyhawk.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 07, 2024, 10:36:56 AMNo female gamer has ever refused to play a game because there weren't enough female NPCs in the source material.
Are we sure about this? I remember one industry writer over on TBP reporting that "I know more than one person who never really got into The Hobbit because the sole female character presented for them to relate to was Lobelia Sackville-Baggins."
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on November 07, 2024, 01:02:44 PMMy opinion: stick to the 1980 folio or the 1983 boxed set. That's Greyhawk.
The 2001 Living Greyhawk Gazeteer is an overlooked book that really deserves for love.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 07, 2024, 06:32:37 AMQuote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 05:28:28 PMNations with female ruler changes:
Dyvers
Greyhawk (possibly) Eric to Erlynn
Perrenland
Verbobonc
South Province
Lordship of the Isles
Sunndi (possibly) Hazendel to Valenta
Ice Barbarians
Snow Barbarians
Wolf Nomads
Geoff
Sterich
Principality of Ulek
Yeomanry (possibly) Crispin Redwell (human) to Vyndi Skyspea (goliath)
Ket
Ull
Given the 2024 Greyhawk is supposed to be back to the original 1E 576 version based on the map this is a HUGE yikes, since the gold box set who the rulers were in that time period. I was fine (although I didn't like it) with them changing stuff with the wars/from the ashes/Living Greyhawk eras since those were in the future. But this is like bringing back pre-Time of Troubles Forgotten Realms and willy-nilly changing races and genders and shit for established rulers.
How many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
I'm pretty sure in the boxed set (maybe not the folio) every one of them was named at least, so you knew who they were. Changing them is just retarded typical progressive crap to act like it was always this way for the new generation
Quote from: M2A0 on November 07, 2024, 02:38:34 PMQuote from: Philotomy Jurament on November 07, 2024, 01:02:44 PMMy opinion: stick to the 1980 folio or the 1983 boxed set. That's Greyhawk.
The 2001 Living Greyhawk Gazeteer is an overlooked book that really deserves for love.
It sure is. Even for people like myself who prefer to end the "official" timeline where the gazetteer and boxed set leave off, it's a great product. I just ignore the stuff after that, which is easily done. You still have plenty of content that is well worth the price of the book.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 07, 2024, 01:57:19 PMAre we sure about this? I remember one industry writer over on TBP reporting that "I know more than one person who never really got into The Hobbit because the sole female character presented for them to relate to was Lobelia Sackville-Baggins."
Note the context here.
When all the women you know are die-hard feminazi shriekers... Yeah, no surprise you know a few that are so lacking in human empathy that they cannot process any work of fiction unless they are given a self-insert to be able to impose themselves on the narrative.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 07, 2024, 12:02:58 PMWOTC is free to use their vast resources and creative genius to create a new setting that is 100% inclusive and full of transgender Dr. Doolittle races, and whatever else they want. They won't do that because its easier to just crap all over IP that they already own.
All they know how to do is mine for member-berries.
For two reasons:
1: They are creatively bankrupt. They are incapable of doing anything without imposing their heavy handed ideology all over it. Which is why they screw with established IP: It is the only way they can impose their ideology, and have people actually buy it.
2: They genuinely do not understand what made D&D popular. Which is why they move to defiling established D&D IP rather than create anything of their own. They really do not comprehend why stuff like Radiant Citadel, and Strixhaven didn't sell like hot-cakes.
Wotc D&D is currently still being run by Gen-Xer's
(however gay and retarded they may be) that still have something resembling nostalgia and sentiment left for the game as it was.
But sooner or later they will be replaced with hyper-left millenials and zoomers. The most unhinged of the current gaming crowd. When that happens they will cut ties with mining member-berries and proceed to move D&D "forward" for modern sensibilities rather than what they view as the lip-service being done by current wotc.
The shift will become evident when they start to blame their biggest customer base for lack of sales. This has already been taking place in the movie and videogame industries.
FWIW, the changes to rulers don't really bother me, as I am free to ignore them and have the older material. I am surprised by the amount of people they changed.
I am more bothered with the tossing in of goliaths, dragonborn, etc. into the setting that never had it.
History is changed (meaningfully or not) to where the Baklunish brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire, and then the Suloise replied with the Invoked Devastation.
They do at least give people mentioned in the text alignments, as alignment was kind of a big deal in Greyhawk.
Overall, It seems like a decent folio, but I haven't read every single word so I might have missed something.
I did expect some 'modernization' but they probably should have mentioned that would be happening rather than tout it's starting year.
Quote from: Tristan on November 07, 2024, 10:46:00 PMFWIW, the changes to rulers don't really bother me, as I am free to ignore them and have the older material. I am surprised by the amount of people they changed.
I am more bothered with the tossing in of goliaths, dragonborn, etc. into the setting that never had it.
History is changed (meaningfully or not) to where the Baklunish brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire, and then the Suloise replied with the Invoked Devastation.
They do at least give people mentioned in the text alignments, as alignment was kind of a big deal in Greyhawk.
Overall, It seems like a decent folio, but I haven't read every single word so I might have missed something.
I did expect some 'modernization' but they probably should have mentioned that would be happening rather than tout it's starting year.
Do you think it's worth buying the new DMG just for the Greyhawk section?
I have zero plans to to run Nue D&D, but I do love me some Greyhawk.
How would you compare the map in the back to previous iterations?
Quote from: M2A0 on November 07, 2024, 11:15:53 PMDo you think it's worth buying the new DMG just for the Greyhawk section?
No. It's only 28 pages of info, and a (rather nice) map. I wouldn't buy the book just for that.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 08, 2024, 12:57:56 AMQuote from: M2A0 on November 07, 2024, 11:15:53 PMDo you think it's worth buying the new DMG just for the Greyhawk section?
No. It's only 28 pages of info, and a (rather nice) map. I wouldn't buy the book just for that.
The artist that did the map posted it online so you dont even need to buy the fake 5e DMG.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 07, 2024, 11:15:53 PMDo you think it's worth buying the new DMG just for the Greyhawk section?
I have zero plans to to run Nue D&D, but I do love me some Greyhawk.
How would you compare the map in the back to previous iterations?
Nope. It doesn't really add anything meaningful that hasn't been published before, and it's got the 5.5 art in it as well, so you'll be avoiding that.
Regarding the map, it's nice. They've changed some nation names as well, nothing major. I'm very partial to the Darlene map so it's not as good as that. Anna Meyer's maps are available too, so it's certainly not worth buying the book for just those two things.
So I actually just read the DMG, as much as I want to say their race/gender swapping is trash, they say it's based on the 1980s Gazetteer ("Folio") which was intentionally left vague (no rulers had names, just titles and maybe classes) and generic for the DM to adjust as they saw fit.
I don't LIKE it, but I can't say it's "bullshit" because it's keeping with the idea Greyhawk is a generic setting you can modify.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 10, 2024, 03:40:58 PMSo I actually just read the DMG, as much as I want to say their race/gender swapping is trash, they say it's based on the 1980s Gazetteer ("Folio") which was intentionally left vague (no rulers had names, just titles and maybe classes) and generic for the DM to adjust as they saw fit.
I don't LIKE it, but I can't say it's "bullshit" because it's keeping with the idea Greyhawk is a generic setting you can modify.
Its total BS because this is the standard trash corporate excuse to make these changes. Lord of the Rings, TMNT, you name it someones probably pulled it by now.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 10, 2024, 03:40:58 PM...it's based on the 1980s Gazetteer ("Folio") which was intentionally left vague (no rulers had names, just titles and maybe classes) and generic for the DM to adjust as they saw fit...I can't say it's "bullshit" because it's keeping with the idea Greyhawk is a generic setting you can modify.
If they wanted to follow the example and approach of the 1980 folio they would've left it vague and up to DM's to customize for their campaigns. (I tend to prefer that approach.)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on November 11, 2024, 09:17:44 AMIf they wanted to follow the example and approach of the 1980 folio they would've left it vague and up to DM's to customize for their campaigns. (I tend to prefer that approach.)
That was my thought as well. WOTC cannot resist an opportunity to advance "the agenda" in any way that they can. This includes crapping all over any and all IP that they own. I am thankful that they have not touched Mystara.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
Quote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.
Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.
Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.
Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.
Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AMThen WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.
That's hardly the same thing, but if that thought keeps you warm...
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 01:43:14 PMThat's hardly the same thing, but if that thought keeps you warm...
It is the same thing, but keep living in denial, if that's what keeps you warm...
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
You guys will never shake your victim mentality. Snow Flakes, all the way down.
Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.
Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.
Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.
Shoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 12, 2024, 04:22:57 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.
Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.
Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.
Shoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.
Don't think it's for anyone, given how all the art is still diversified AI style slop.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 12, 2024, 04:22:57 PMShoe-horning, shit the DEI is more important than cannon now. WotC doesn't give two fucks about you. You are not the target audience. Greyhawk 2024 is not for you.
Meanwhile on ESPN 8 The Ocho...
"It appears that WoTC is going to alienate the majority of the RPG community and focus on blue-haired psychopaths by introducing more DEI into their products!"
"It's a bold strategy Cotton! Let's see if it pays off for 'em..."
Personally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
Quote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.
Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.
Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.
Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.
Except there's little to no evidence that such an audience exists. WotC has been caught fudging numbers and using misleading verbiage when it comes to their "successes" so far. Ignoring the woke infiltration of the perceived industry leader (notice I said "perceived") is the same as condoning it. I don't know where this idea arose that consumers shouldn't voice their opinions to producers (actually, I do; it comes from people who like the direction of movement, but know they are in the minority, hoping to buy enough time to squelch all opposition), but it is the opposite of everything that once made the market economy the most effective economic force in history. Retailers want to make money off of customers; customers want to buy the products they want from producers. It seems like frank and honest feedback would be beneficial to both. Only those who wish to warp economic structures into a command economy could assert that producers should ignore what customers want, and customers should be forced to buy what producers want them to buy.
Only a foolish businessman would willingly alienate the majority of customers for a smaller minority, in the hopes that the minority could force the majority to change tastes. So, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Luckily, TONS of OSR products don't concern themselves with DEI. So you can find stuff you like, and the blue-haired feminists can find stuff they like.
Taking a piss every time you see DEI is about as helpful as TDS. No one cares. Just play the shit you like. The existence of "woke" products is not going to make your pee-pee fall off.
Except there's little to no evidence that such an audience exists. WotC has been caught fudging numbers and using misleading verbiage when it comes to their "successes" so far. Ignoring the woke infiltration of the perceived industry leader (notice I said "perceived") is the same as condoning it. I don't know where this idea arose that consumers shouldn't voice their opinions to producers (actually, I do; it comes from people who like the direction of movement, but know they are in the minority, hoping to buy enough time to squelch all opposition), but it is the opposite of everything that once made the market economy the most effective economic force in history. Retailers want to make money off of customers; customers want to buy the products they want from producers. It seems like frank and honest feedback would be beneficial to both. Only those who wish to warp economic structures into a command economy could assert that producers should ignore what customers want, and customers should be forced to buy what producers want them to buy.
Only a foolish businessman would willingly alienate the majority of customers for a smaller minority, in the hopes that the minority could force the majority to change tastes. So, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
If that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 09:26:45 AMIf that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.
So it has come to pass: D&D is the McDonald's of RPGs.
Quote from: blackstone on November 14, 2024, 12:12:00 PMQuote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 09:26:45 AMIf that were true, they'd go broke. But they won't. My local FLGS can't keep the stupid new books in stock, they sell like hotcakes. It's hot garbage, and I want no part of it. But it is selling, very, very well.
So it has come to pass: D&D is the McDonald's of RPGs.
Always has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.
Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). :) I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PMQuote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.
Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). :) I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.
There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!
If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!
Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.
Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.
All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 02:18:45 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PMQuote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.
Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). :) I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.
There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.
The gatekeepers failed us all /s?
Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!
If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!
Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.
Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.
All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.
This forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.
It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.
Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMYou are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Will they?
Movies, Tv, DC/MARVEL comics, and now video games have shown that 'this approach' will eventually cause the audience and fans to turn away.
In my opinion D&D has not reached that tipping point yet, but they are on their way to doing so.
Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!
If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!
Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.
Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.
All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.
First of all, if you care about the hobby, then you care about the fate of D&D, because, sadly, to most people it is the hobby. We can stop this in two ways: speaking out about what is wrong and encouraging others to play what is good. They both go hand-in-hand. If we don't push back, new players to the hobby don't ever know there is something different, other ways to play. You may be satisfied in playing in a ever-shrinking hobby for your remaining years, but that isn't enough for many of us. I want my kids and grandkids (both of which I have) to experience the same kind of imagination, joy, and interaction that I had playing the game when it was young. I don't want them to grow up where RPGs means BDSM safe-words and Mexican orcs. So, I point out what is wrong and I promote and play what is good. I'm running a high school-based RPG club with over 50 students in almost a dozen different student-lead campaigns (plus the one that I run there for new players and aspiring DMs). What exactly are you doing to preserve and grow the hobby? Or are your concerns just selfish and personal?
In fact, why haven't you posted any of the threads that you want to read? Why is it someone else's job to post them here? Be the change you want. But it's easier to complain (about other people complaining, ironically) than it is to do something positive and productive, I guess...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 14, 2024, 06:57:49 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!
If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!
Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.
Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.
All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.
First of all, if you care about the hobby, then you care about the fate of D&D, because, sadly, to most people it is the hobby. We can stop this in two ways: speaking out about what is wrong and encouraging others to play what is good. They both go hand-in-hand. If we don't push back, new players to the hobby don't ever know there is something different, other ways to play. You may be satisfied in playing in a ever-shrinking hobby for your remaining years, but that isn't enough for many of us. I want my kids and grandkids (both of which I have) to experience the same kind of imagination, joy, and interaction that I had playing the game when it was young. I don't want them to grow up where RPGs means BDSM safe-words and Mexican orcs. So, I point out what is wrong and I promote and play what is good. I'm running a high school-based RPG club with over 50 students in almost a dozen different student-lead campaigns (plus the one that I run there for new players and aspiring DMs).
You're doing Gods work!
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 02:18:45 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PMQuote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.
Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). :) I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.
There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.
Its bitter irony that the people who were bitching incessantly that "D&D needs to be cleaned up so the normals will respect us!" got the game cleaned up all reight. Except any respect we had is now in the gutters and RPGs are now for "Kidults".
Tank you ever so much you morons.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 14, 2024, 06:29:23 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMYou are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Will they?
Movies, Tv, DC/MARVEL comics, and now video games have shown that 'this approach' will eventually cause the audience and fans to turn away.
In my opinion D&D has not reached that tipping point yet, but they are on their way to doing so.
WOTC is running toward that event horizon.
At this point even if I never run 5E or Pathfinder I'm keeping the books.
Simply because I can't take a step without the tog equivalent of tripping over a player who enjoys both.
1E and 2E is the opposite I need to look under ever nook and cranny to find players. Even then I would use Cadtle and Crussdes. I want an rpg that hives the same experience with more modern rule set and unified mechanics.
The nostalgia is not enough for me to go back to older editions full time.
Quote from: Abraxus on November 15, 2024, 12:32:47 PMThe nostalgia is not enough for me to go back to older editions full time.
The only nostalgia the older editions hold for me is in memories of who I was playing alongside in my youth. The old rulesets themselves don't add anything to those memories. If I could get my old group back together (which would require at least one IRL raise dead), we would certainly rather play a modern game than the old shit.
Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 04:39:01 PMThis forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.
It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.
Nah, when I joined lo these many years ago, it didn't default to culture war, it defaulted to interesting OSR-centric content with a side of culture war. Now I'm as likely to find useful material at the big purple as I do here - not because they've increased their relevance, but because y'all have been marinating here, and some of the best posters have gone quiet.
Quote from: Naburimannu on November 16, 2024, 12:50:55 PMQuote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 04:39:01 PMThis forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.
It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.
Nah, when I joined lo these many years ago, it didn't default to culture war, it defaulted to interesting OSR-centric content with a side of culture war. Now I'm as likely to find useful material at the big purple as I do here - not because they've increased their relevance, but because y'all have been marinating here, and some of the best posters have gone quiet.
How about you post some "useful material" that you feel the site is lacking? I'm sure it will get thoughtful responses, as most pure gaming threads here usually do.
The only people complaining about the political content here are folks who are angry that there is some place where ideas they don't like can be expressed. I don't see similar posts by the same people here posted on the big purple, complaining about the politics there. No one has to click on any thread here that is on a topic they don't want to read. The only reason to complain about them here is if you aren't allowed to disagree (which is not the case here) or if you don't believe opposing ideas should be expressed (in which case, we know exactly which side you stand on, and you'd probably be happier in the TBP hugbox). Either way, its not about the amount of gaming posts...
On DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.
A Greyhawk module
QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.
Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.
The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.
Quote from: Omega on November 21, 2024, 04:23:53 AMOn DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.
A Greyhawk module
QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.
Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.
The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.
Goodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module.
There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.
Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?
Quote from: Man at Arms on November 22, 2024, 01:39:45 PMGoodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module.
There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.
Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?
wotc put out Princes of the Apocalypse which was a sort of continuation of Elemental Evil rather than a reprint. Its also one of the adventures for the Neverwinter MMO.
Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.
Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.
Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"
WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.
cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit
In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.
Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.
Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.
Here's the business formula: no amount of inclusiveness will ever get you as many new customers as what you will lose if you DISRESPECT the original product/world/characters. Arbitrary race or genderswapping or "queering" established characters will for virtue signaling purposes will never pay off. Killing off major characters to replace them with "much more powerful and cooler right off the bat" diversity characters is even worse.
Sometimes, adding new characters, elements of the world, etc, if they do NOT disrespect the existing product/world/characters, can potentially have some kind of benefit, but only if they aren't written in JUST to be "the diversity character" or be better than everyone else.
Quote from: Man at Arms on November 22, 2024, 01:39:45 PMQuote from: Omega on November 21, 2024, 04:23:53 AMOn DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.
A Greyhawk module
QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.
Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.
The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.
Goodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module.
There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.
Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?
Iirc return was for 3.0.
Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Except that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
The "target audience" DOES NOT EXIST. They claim the target audience is 'black women','LGBTQ+_Gaymers', "Asian & Pacific Islanders", "Latinx" gamers, etc. and sell these Woke agendas to the corporations that there are millions and millions of black people, so if we just fill the PHB art with black people you'll get MILLIONS of sales, because they'll suddenly care about RPGs.
Except they NEVER do. The black people who are already gamers DO NOT CARE (or do not care enough) about the representation to make a difference, they will either buy the product anyways or they never would. And no one who is not already a gamer will decide to become one because the 2024 PHB is full of illustrations of Obese Black Women Being Strong or something like that.
Same goes for every other group listed.
So the ONLY audience they're really targeting are the few thousand or so anti-liberal identity politics leftist activists, who all DESPISE D&D. They want to force D&D to be remolded into a propaganda tool for their totalitarian agenda, or to cease to exist altogether, but they won't ever actually buy the product (save a tiny group who make it their job to try to write or produce Woke D&D stuff).
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2024, 04:00:09 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Except that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
The "target audience" DOES NOT EXIST. They claim the target audience is 'black women','LGBTQ+_Gaymers', "Asian & Pacific Islanders", "Latinx" gamers, etc. and sell these Woke agendas to the corporations that there are millions and millions of black people, so if we just fill the PHB art with black people you'll get MILLIONS of sales, because they'll suddenly care about RPGs.
Except they NEVER do. The black people who are already gamers DO NOT CARE (or do not care enough) about the representation to make a difference, they will either buy the product anyways or they never would. And no one who is not already a gamer will decide to become one because the 2024 PHB is full of illustrations of Obese Black Women Being Strong or something like that.
Same goes for every other group listed.
So the ONLY audience they're really targeting are the few thousand or so anti-liberal identity politics leftist activists, who all DESPISE D&D. They want to force D&D to be remolded into a propaganda tool for their totalitarian agenda, or to cease to exist altogether, but they won't ever actually buy the product (save a tiny group who make it their job to try to write or produce Woke D&D stuff).
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
I don't think that's how companies like WOTC perceive the question internally. I think the operative question is not "how many customers which we wouldn't otherwise get will this wokeness attract?". At this point, they have to know that number is insignificant. I think question one is "how many of our potential customers are demoralized or brainwashed enough to not balk at this", and the second question corollary is "of the number that will balk, is that loss worth taking in exchange for the positive press and/or DEI investment money we can get from being performatively woke?"
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2024, 05:19:31 PMI don't think that's how companies like WOTC perceive the question internally. I think the operative question is not "how many customers which we wouldn't otherwise get will this wokeness attract?". At this point, they have to know that number is insignificant. I think question one is "how many of our potential customers are demoralized or brainwashed enough to not balk at this", and the second question corollary is "of the number that will balk, is that loss worth taking in exchange for the positive press and/or DEI investment money we can get from being performatively woke?"
The issue with that strategy now is that a lot of the DEI investment funding is drying up. A good number of companies are dropping wokeness like a hot potato when the realization that they actually have to be profitable to survive sinks in. It is the same problem that forever plagues rabid progressives-eventually you run out of other people's money.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 23, 2024, 08:23:11 AMQuote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2024, 05:19:31 PMI don't think that's how companies like WOTC perceive the question internally. I think the operative question is not "how many customers which we wouldn't otherwise get will this wokeness attract?". At this point, they have to know that number is insignificant. I think question one is "how many of our potential customers are demoralized or brainwashed enough to not balk at this", and the second question corollary is "of the number that will balk, is that loss worth taking in exchange for the positive press and/or DEI investment money we can get from being performatively woke?"
The issue with that strategy now is that a lot of the DEI investment funding is drying up. A good number of companies are dropping wokeness like a hot potato when the realization that they actually have to be profitable to survive sinks in. It is the same problem that forever plagues rabid progressives-eventually you run out of other people's money.
That's been the rumor for a while now, yeah. If only it was that simple. For one thing, the years of DEI money have had these companies hiring lots of progressive idealogues into creative control positions, and those people are less easily fired than one might think. For another, corporations are very good at deflecting the reasons for their failures. If NuD&D were to flop, Hasbro could just as easily blame it on the VTT project or go all the way to saying that post-COVID there just isn't a market for D&D anymore. There's the signal-noise issue as well; with progressive control of the entertainment media, the corporations will continue to see over-represented positive feedback, even if profits are declining. That just makes it easier to misplace blame for why the product isn't selling well.
I do think a pendulum shift in the entertainment industry is coming, but I agree with the people who say it's going to be slow; 5-10 years or more. Even then, I'd guess D&D is one of the last places we're going to see the change. Compared to TV, film, videogames etc., the money involved in making D&D is chump change, so the stakes on making sales are smaller. Plus, D&D's audience contains a higher than average percentage of the aformentioned "non-noticers", who may not be fully woke themselves, but are not going to question wokeness when it appears.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2024, 04:00:09 PMExcept that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
...
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
I'm not seeing any evidence of a sales slump. Wouldn't Hasbro have come in and cut the whole RPG business? They only care about profits, after all. I would like to see where people are getting your sales numbers from. Maybe post them here for consideration? What proof do you have that these identity politics are the primary factor affecting sales? Could it just be that the last couple of years' products suck?
I find the idea of D&D being used as a mechanism of leftist fascists to be a reach. Is it inundated with loud, woke hang-wringers? Sure. But an "Agenda (capital A)"? Maybe by accident. I don't see some plot to use D&D for an Agenda, only a strong desire to blow every culture-war thing way out of proportion with needless outrage—which these types do with EVERYTHING (on both sides). I have difficulty attributing that kind of emotional behavior to any thought-out plan. This is pure hubris and delusion.
I believe they have a target audience and are selling enough to that target audience to stay profitable in the eyes of the Hasbro Overlords. I also believe that TheRPGSite comprises less than 5% of that target audience. :-P
Is the woke stuff for everyone? Gods no. There are a remarkable number of threads I see on Reddit of people dumping 5e for OSR games. My evidence is anecdotal, but it seems to me to be losing ground. I don't believe WOTC has the hold on the RPG market everyone gives them credit for having. There are visible cracks in the armor. I also don't see enough stumping for NuSR stuff to say that the "woke" crowd is making any more headway there than WOTC.
But let's not mistake desperation for an "Agenda." Identity politics have become a vitriolic team sport. Most of this outrage is just desperate people screaming into the sky at any perceived "loss." (Again, on both extremes.) Maybe it's an agenda (small a) at a basic level, but I don't believe any more thought went into it than outrage and emotional angst towards "enemies" on the other team.
Once again, why attribute malice to something easily explained by incompetence?
Quote from: trechriron on November 25, 2024, 08:46:53 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2024, 04:00:09 PMExcept that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
...
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
I'm not seeing any evidence of a sales slump. Wouldn't Hasbro have come in and cut the whole RPG business? They only care about profits, after all. I would like to see where people are getting your sales numbers from. Maybe post them here for consideration? What proof do you have that these identity politics are the primary factor affecting sales? Could it just be that the last couple of years' products suck?
Where are you seeing evidence that the sales aren't slumping? If you are going to disagree (you're not just asking for evidence, you are actively saying he's wrong based on what you are "seeing.") with Pundit's numbers, shouldn't you have some evidence yourself? As for the second part, you're making a distinction without a difference. Calling a product "woke" and saying it "sucks" is totally redundant. Woke cannot produce good products. Ever. The mindset of the woke prevents them from producing good products. A woke person can produce something good at first, if they don't put any (or not very much) woke in it. But the moment woke ideology infiltrates the product, quality is impossible. Woke is the antithesis of merit, which means it is the antithesis of excellence.
I know it sucks to be a modern leftist. You've gotten the reins of power, only to have reality come crashing down on you, that your ideas objectively suck (not necessarily "you" personally, though I generally find the folks who complain the most about politics as "team sport" tend to be the folks whose "team" is losing). They can't work. Understand that what you are feeling right now is the first step towards healing: the recognition of what is true. You can reject it, and never manage to pull yourself out of the leftist delusion (which means you will always hook your future to unworkable ideas), or you can listen to reality and maybe start to change.
Remember, you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality...
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
Greyhawk fans have put together an 84 page authentic introduction to the setting that logs changes from classic Greyhawk vs. DMG 5.5 Greyhawk, while also talking to the value of Greyhawk's original setting design. If you're interested, it's almost free (50 cents in PDF) and at https://www.dmsguild.com/product/503532/World-of-Greyhawk-Gazetteer-Revised
This is similar in intention to Vecna: Genesis of a Legend: the free, 42-page fan-driven effort at http://www.canonfire.com/vecna/VecnaGenesisofaLegend.pdf that seeks to correct the many issues with Vecna: Eve of Ruin and inform new fans about Vecna's storied history in the setting.
Greyhawk's fan community continues to provide the best support for the setting, across its publishing eras and game editions.
Allan.
Quote from: grodog on January 10, 2025, 12:35:40 AMGreyhawk fans have put together an 84 page authentic introduction to the setting that logs changes from classic Greyhawk vs. DMG 5.5 Greyhawk, while also talking to the value of Greyhawk's original setting design. If you're interested, it's almost free (50 cents in PDF) and at https://www.dmsguild.com/product/503532/World-of-Greyhawk-Gazetteer-Revised (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/503532/World-of-Greyhawk-Gazetteer-Revised)
Thank you for the link. The price is certainly nice, so I'll check this out.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2024, 04:00:09 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Except that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
The "target audience" DOES NOT EXIST. They claim the target audience is 'black women','LGBTQ+_Gaymers', "Asian & Pacific Islanders", "Latinx" gamers, etc. and sell these Woke agendas to the corporations that there are millions and millions of black people, so if we just fill the PHB art with black people you'll get MILLIONS of sales, because they'll suddenly care about RPGs.
Except they NEVER do. The black people who are already gamers DO NOT CARE (or do not care enough) about the representation to make a difference, they will either buy the product anyways or they never would. And no one who is not already a gamer will decide to become one because the 2024 PHB is full of illustrations of Obese Black Women Being Strong or something like that.
Same goes for every other group listed.
So the ONLY audience they're really targeting are the few thousand or so anti-liberal identity politics leftist activists, who all DESPISE D&D. They want to force D&D to be remolded into a propaganda tool for their totalitarian agenda, or to cease to exist altogether, but they won't ever actually buy the product (save a tiny group who make it their job to try to write or produce Woke D&D stuff).
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
Lots of truth, right there.
Quote from: Man at Arms on January 10, 2025, 04:58:54 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 22, 2024, 04:00:09 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMQuote from: blackstone on November 13, 2024, 10:12:29 AMPersonally, I haven't bought a WoTC/D&D product for at least 20 years. They lost me at 3e.
You are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.
Except that's not true; when WotC ramped up the Wokeness starting around their Candlekeep product, they suffered an ever accelerating collapse of sales. As each book became MORE woke, it lost more audience.
The "target audience" DOES NOT EXIST. They claim the target audience is 'black women','LGBTQ+_Gaymers', "Asian & Pacific Islanders", "Latinx" gamers, etc. and sell these Woke agendas to the corporations that there are millions and millions of black people, so if we just fill the PHB art with black people you'll get MILLIONS of sales, because they'll suddenly care about RPGs.
Except they NEVER do. The black people who are already gamers DO NOT CARE (or do not care enough) about the representation to make a difference, they will either buy the product anyways or they never would. And no one who is not already a gamer will decide to become one because the 2024 PHB is full of illustrations of Obese Black Women Being Strong or something like that.
Same goes for every other group listed.
So the ONLY audience they're really targeting are the few thousand or so anti-liberal identity politics leftist activists, who all DESPISE D&D. They want to force D&D to be remolded into a propaganda tool for their totalitarian agenda, or to cease to exist altogether, but they won't ever actually buy the product (save a tiny group who make it their job to try to write or produce Woke D&D stuff).
Wokeness only kills profitability. It has no vast natural audience, as the 2024 elections proved.
Lots of truth, right there.
Greetings!
Yeah, the non-existant Woke Liberal market audience.
25% to 30, 40% of people under the age of 30 are unemployed and fucking broke. If they are lucky, they are working as a Barista at Starbucks and living 6 to an apartment. Still, with the high cost of living, crushing prices everywhere for so many things, it isn't a stretch to think that 50% of people under 30 are thus broke or stretched close to it. Them having disposable income to lavish on D&D is unlikely.
But WOTC says fuck to all the Gen Xers and Boomers, and people over 40 that actually have the *MONEY* to spend on the D&D hobby.
Absolute morons. As usual, Liberals are fucking idiots when it comes to understanding economics and business, and really, anything in the REAL WORLD. They are too busy staying high on drugs, or circle-jerking each other on some fantasy dream of Marxist Utopianism.
WOTC needs to entirely ignore Greyhawk. Greyhawk has devoted fans, and doesn't need WOTC to do anything with Greyhawk.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Tristan on November 06, 2024, 12:59:49 PMThey also diversified the leadership of the various nations as well as some populations, changing them from the old boxed set.
to meet DEI standards as dictated by WoTC.
How completely fucking retarded.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on November 07, 2024, 01:02:44 PMMy opinion: stick to the 1980 folio or the 1983 boxed set. That's Greyhawk.
I have both, love both, and been sticking with them ever since.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 07, 2024, 01:57:19 PMQuote from: hedgehobbit on November 07, 2024, 10:36:56 AMNo female gamer has ever refused to play a game because there weren't enough female NPCs in the source material.
Are we sure about this? I remember one industry writer over on TBP reporting that "I know more than one person who never really got into The Hobbit because the sole female character presented for them to relate to was Lobelia Sackville-Baggins."
If that's her hang up, obviously this person has other issues going on.
I willing to be she has Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PMGaming should be for fun, not for political discourse.
With that being said, why did WoTC take D&D down that road by shoving DEI into their products?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 14, 2024, 06:57:49 PMQuote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer. Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC. And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/1FKQnTE_xs.mp4)
I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!
If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!
Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.
Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.
All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.
First of all, if you care about the hobby, then you care about the fate of D&D, because, sadly, to most people it is the hobby. We can stop this in two ways: speaking out about what is wrong and encouraging others to play what is good. They both go hand-in-hand. If we don't push back, new players to the hobby don't ever know there is something different, other ways to play. You may be satisfied in playing in a ever-shrinking hobby for your remaining years, but that isn't enough for many of us. I want my kids and grandkids (both of which I have) to experience the same kind of imagination, joy, and interaction that I had playing the game when it was young. I don't want them to grow up where RPGs means BDSM safe-words and Mexican orcs. So, I point out what is wrong and I promote and play what is good. I'm running a high school-based RPG club with over 50 students in almost a dozen different student-lead campaigns (plus the one that I run there for new players and aspiring DMs). What exactly are you doing to preserve and grow the hobby? Or are your concerns just selfish and personal?
In fact, why haven't you posted any of the threads that you want to read? Why is it someone else's job to post them here? Be the change you want. But it's easier to complain (about other people complaining, ironically) than it is to do something positive and productive, I guess...
(https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/KTjvrOg_md.jpg)
Quote from: SHARK on January 10, 2025, 09:23:16 AMYeah, the non-existant Woke Liberal market audience.
25% to 30, 40% of people under the age of 30 are unemployed and fucking broke. If they are lucky, they are working as a Barista at Starbucks and living 6 to an apartment. Still, with the high cost of living, crushing prices everywhere for so many things, it isn't a stretch to think that 50% of people under 30 are thus broke or stretched close to it. Them having disposable income to lavish on D&D is unlikely.
But WOTC says fuck to all the Gen Xers and Boomers, and people over 40 that actually have the *MONEY* to spend on the D&D hobby.
Absolute morons. As usual, Liberals are fucking idiots when it comes to understanding economics and business, and really, anything in the REAL WORLD. They are too busy staying high on drugs, or circle-jerking each other on some fantasy dream of Marxist Utopianism.
WOTC needs to entirely ignore Greyhawk. Greyhawk has devoted fans, and doesn't need WOTC to do anything with Greyhawk.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Economically it makes no sense by switching their target demographic from Gen X (me) and Boomers who generally have money to spend of entertainment, to the Millennials and Gen Z who don't have money to spend on entertainment.
I think they just looked at numbers of people by age group and not taking in annual income by age group. A younger generation may be larger in numbers, but it doesn't mean they have an income to have money to spend.
Generally speaking, the older you are, the more economically stable you are.
If it were me, I would have cast as broad as a net I could to get everyone from 10-60+. Basically I would have made the rules a clean up/clarification of both B/X and AD&D 1st ed. maybe have a skill system similar to 3E as well, though skills would be limited by class or race. By doing that, I think it would appear more "modern", but accessible to everyone.
Art-wise, I would have called in some of the old school artists like Otus, Elmore, etc. and some of the newer artists who have an old school vibe (Brian "GLAD" Thomas, Peter Mullen, Stefan Poag, etc.).
Oh. Wait...
THE OLD SCHOOL RENAISSIANSE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS.
Sarcasm aside, this is why I went OSR years ago. Arguably before it was a thing (Hackmaster 4E IMO is what really kicked of the OSR).
I never changed. D&D did, and not for the better.
2nd ed was fine. At least it was backward compatible.
Never liked 3e. 20+ page conversion book and nothing was backward compatible. They made it different enough to where you had to buy all new books. Nope. Not me.
4E: The Edition That Shall Not Be Named. Where the video-game vibe came in. start of cutting ties with D&D roots.
5E: the ties to older editions finally cut. feels like a computer RPG than table top, and that's by design. more like Dragon Age, and less (if any) Tolkien. Sword & Sorcery influences are no longer evident.
The OSR is less restrictive and more inclusive than D&D today could ever wish it could be. Sure, they say the DMG has sold "Record numbers", but how many of those promptly put is aside, never to play again? Or sold it online? Or returned it?
Yeah, those are the numbers you don't hear about, though I've heard stories and seen pics of the latest D&D books ending up in bargain bins. Just saying...
They get initial customers, but the number of RETURNING customers I'm willing to bet are low.
Top it off with the DEI hill Wotc is willing to die on, and you have a slow death of the game that started to whole rpg hobby.