Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!

If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!

Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.

Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.

All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.

This forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.

It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.

Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMYou are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.

Will they?

Movies, Tv, DC/MARVEL comics, and now video games have shown that 'this approach' will eventually cause the audience and fans to turn away.

In my opinion D&D has not reached that tipping point yet, but they are on their way to doing so.

Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!

If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!

Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.

Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.

All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.

First of all, if you care about the hobby, then you care about the fate of D&D, because, sadly, to most people it is the hobby.  We can stop this in two ways: speaking out about what is wrong and encouraging others to play what is good.  They both go hand-in-hand.  If we don't push back, new players to the hobby don't ever know there is something different, other ways to play.  You may be satisfied in playing in a ever-shrinking hobby for your remaining years, but that isn't enough for many of us.  I want my kids and grandkids (both of which I have) to experience the same kind of imagination, joy, and interaction that I had playing the game when it was young.  I don't want them to grow up where RPGs means BDSM safe-words and Mexican orcs.  So, I point out what is wrong and I promote and play what is good.  I'm running a high school-based RPG club with over 50 students in almost a dozen different student-lead campaigns (plus the one that I run there for new players and aspiring DMs).  What exactly are you doing to preserve and grow the hobby?  Or are your concerns just selfish and personal?

In fact, why haven't you posted any of the threads that you want to read?  Why is it someone else's job to post them here?  Be the change you want.  But it's easier to complain (about other people complaining, ironically) than it is to do something positive and productive, I guess...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 14, 2024, 06:57:49 PM

Quote from: trechriron on November 14, 2024, 03:06:02 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2024, 10:11:08 PMSo, unless you have some evidence not readily available to the rest of us, you'll need to find something that can prove the "woke" customer is more numerous and spends more money than the traditional RPG consumer.  Otherwise, there is no justification (as in economic, not political) for the behavior of WotC.  And there is no justification at all for consumers to remain queit, regardless of their numbers.

I said no such thing. I don't need evidence for my argument; please pay attention to what I'm saying. I don't care about their numbers, and neither should you. Why do you fucking care about a company that doesn't care about you? Put your money where your mouth is!

If we were talking about the availability of air on a Mars colony, access to clean water or life-saving medicine, I agree 100%. I would stand right by you and protest. But RPGs?!?!

Who fucking cares. There are WAY too many awesome games out there that don't cater to a loud, woke minority to care how WOTC is churning out shit sauce.

Gaming should be for fun, not for political discourse. Allowing the culture war to dominate the conversation ultimately is a self-sabotaging, self-loathing road to ruin. It seems all too common now for a thread here to devolve into "Poor me, the libtard woke creators lit my face on fire." or worse, "A call to arms! Kill all the woke libtards!" Hah! I have no time to start a war, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

This forum represented a generally level-headed group of enthusiasts who looked at the "woke" diaspora and laughed. It was like hanging out with a group of adult friends, giggling under their breath while the toddlers sitting in front of us argued about who gets to play with the legos. Sure, it was all nonsense while imagined slights were committed in the minds of the hand-wringers. What can you do? Have any of the arguments, coordinated trolling, or angry protests did anything to change it? Nope. TheRPGsite is floating in a pool of our piss with literally nothing to show for it except a bunch of angry old dudes drinking piss together. Hence the ask--stop taking a piss.

All this culture war stuff is exhausting. It's ruining our hobby. I want to read threads about the fucking cool shit you love. What are you playing? What are you creating? Link me! I buy a lot of stuff. I'll buy your stuff. Please show me what I could be playing besides WOTC D&D.

First of all, if you care about the hobby, then you care about the fate of D&D, because, sadly, to most people it is the hobby.  We can stop this in two ways: speaking out about what is wrong and encouraging others to play what is good.  They both go hand-in-hand.  If we don't push back, new players to the hobby don't ever know there is something different, other ways to play.  You may be satisfied in playing in a ever-shrinking hobby for your remaining years, but that isn't enough for many of us.  I want my kids and grandkids (both of which I have) to experience the same kind of imagination, joy, and interaction that I had playing the game when it was young.  I don't want them to grow up where RPGs means BDSM safe-words and Mexican orcs.  So, I point out what is wrong and I promote and play what is good.  I'm running a high school-based RPG club with over 50 students in almost a dozen different student-lead campaigns (plus the one that I run there for new players and aspiring DMs).

You're doing Gods work!

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 14, 2024, 02:18:45 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 14, 2024, 12:44:43 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 12:18:06 PMAlways has been. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be talking about it. Almost all of us are not playing new D&D, but we won't shut up about it.

  Which is the problem of D&D being the 80,000-lb. whale in the hobby (as opposed to the 8,000-lb. rhino it used to be). I still maintain that its dominance has been bad for D&D--which winds up trying to be all sorts of fantasy to all people--as well as the RPG hobby and even the fantasy genre as a whole.

There's a reason "May your hobby go mainstream" is now an insult. ON the surface it's good but in reality you get a lot of bad apples who want to change it to fit their views; we've seen this in Warhammer, D&D, Star Wars, videogames, basically everything that becomes mainstream ends up getting "normies" in who don't really care about the hobby they want to join in because it's popular, but since they aren't invested in it they don't respect the history.

Its bitter irony that the people who were bitching incessantly that "D&D needs to be cleaned up so the normals will respect us!" got the game cleaned up all reight. Except any respect we had is now in the gutters and RPGs are now for "Kidults".

Tank you ever so much you morons.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 14, 2024, 06:29:23 PM

Quote from: trechriron on November 13, 2024, 02:53:32 PMYou are not the target audience. WOTC D&D will find its audience and sell plenty of books to people who want this approach.

Will they?

Movies, Tv, DC/MARVEL comics, and now video games have shown that 'this approach' will eventually cause the audience and fans to turn away.

In my opinion D&D has not reached that tipping point yet, but they are on their way to doing so.

WOTC is running toward that event horizon.

At this point even if I never run 5E or Pathfinder I'm keeping the books.

Simply because I can't take a step without the tog equivalent of tripping over a player who enjoys both.

1E and 2E is the opposite I need to look under ever nook and cranny to find players. Even then I would use Cadtle and Crussdes. I want an rpg that hives the same experience with more modern rule set and unified mechanics.

The nostalgia is not enough for me to go back to older editions full time.

Quote from: Abraxus on November 15, 2024, 12:32:47 PMThe nostalgia is not enough for me to go back to older editions full time.

The only nostalgia the older editions hold for me is in memories of who I was playing alongside in my youth. The old rulesets themselves don't add anything to those memories. If I could get my old group back together (which would require at least one IRL raise dead), we would certainly rather play a modern game than the old shit.

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 04:39:01 PMThis forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.

It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.

Nah, when I joined lo these many years ago, it didn't default to culture war, it defaulted to interesting OSR-centric content with a side of culture war. Now I'm as likely to find useful material at the big purple as I do here - not because they've increased their relevance, but because y'all have been marinating here, and some of the best posters have gone quiet.

Quote from: Naburimannu on November 16, 2024, 12:50:55 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on November 14, 2024, 04:39:01 PMThis forum exist because most of the members have been banned or shunned on other forums.

It's always going to default to culture war. Also Pundit uses outrage to keep this thing going. It's what gets clicks.

Nah, when I joined lo these many years ago, it didn't default to culture war, it defaulted to interesting OSR-centric content with a side of culture war. Now I'm as likely to find useful material at the big purple as I do here - not because they've increased their relevance, but because y'all have been marinating here, and some of the best posters have gone quiet.

How about you post some "useful material" that you feel the site is lacking?  I'm sure it will get thoughtful responses, as most pure gaming threads here usually do.

The only people complaining about the political content here are folks who are angry that there is some place where ideas they don't like can be expressed.  I don't see similar posts by the same people here posted on the big purple, complaining about the politics there.  No one has to click on any thread here that is on a topic they don't want to read.  The only reason to complain about them here is if you aren't allowed to disagree (which is not the case here) or if you don't believe opposing ideas should be expressed (in which case, we know exactly which side you stand on, and you'd probably be happier in the TBP hugbox).  Either way, its not about the amount of gaming posts...

On DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.

A Greyhawk module

QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.

Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.

The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.

Quote from: Omega on November 21, 2024, 04:23:53 AMOn DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.

A Greyhawk module

QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.

Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.

The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.

Goodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module. 

There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.

Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 22, 2024, 01:39:45 PMGoodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module. 

There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.

Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?

wotc put out Princes of the Apocalypse which was a sort of continuation of Elemental Evil rather than a reprint. Its also one of the adventures for the Neverwinter MMO.

Quote from: blackstone on November 12, 2024, 10:09:54 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2024, 09:47:44 AM

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 12, 2024, 07:32:18 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2024, 07:22:55 PM

Quote from: blackstone on November 11, 2024, 02:19:20 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 07, 2024, 09:56:34 AMHow many of those "established rulers" had more than a single line of text before? The only one that really stands out to me is the Prince (now Princess) of the Principality of Ulek. These changes represent the desire to make D&D worlds feel more inclusive. There are far more female players now than there were 4 decades ago, so they figured that new players (not us) would like a world with more female leaders. I don't really object, but that's because I don't see the change as a dramatic alteration to the world nor do I feel it disrespects the setting or its original writers.

Your way of thinking is dead. The election proves that.

Not only "get woke, go broke" it's "get woke, lose by the vote"

WTF? The election had 0 to do with D&D.

cuz you're still peddling woke "more inclusive is good" horseshit

In a game world, it's a choice that's neither good nor bad. It's simply a choice of how to flavor the dish. You may not like a particular flavor combination, but that doesn't mean the inclusive dish is objectively "bad" because it doesn't meet your tastes. In this case, Greyhawk was "cooked" to the tastes of what WotC believes to be its target audience. That target audience likely doesn't include the majority of the posters on this board, but they are unlikely to buy the book in any event.

Still, the thread is asking for opinions. Thank you for yours, but attacking mine isn't really necessary, and trying to make this about a fucking IRL election is just being an asshole.

Then WoTC is the asshole by obviously shoe-horning DEI into their products.

Here's the business formula: no amount of inclusiveness will ever get you as many new customers as what you will lose if you DISRESPECT the original product/world/characters. Arbitrary race or genderswapping or "queering" established characters will for virtue signaling purposes will never pay off. Killing off major characters to replace them with "much more powerful and cooler right off the bat" diversity characters is even worse.

Sometimes, adding new characters, elements of the world, etc, if they do NOT disrespect the existing product/world/characters, can potentially have some kind of benefit, but only if they aren't written in JUST to be "the diversity character" or be better than everyone else.

Quote from: Man at Arms on November 22, 2024, 01:39:45 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 21, 2024, 04:23:53 AMOn DnD Beyond they are giving away a free module for the new edition.

A Greyhawk module

QuoteBeneath the Temple of Elemental Evil lies a labyrinth of tombs and ritual chambers. For years these dungeons have lain in ruin. Now forsaken souls return, raising an army of evil to destroy the world.

Scions of Elemental Evil is part of a yearlong celebration of Dungeons & Dragons and its 50th anniversary. This adventure uses the 2024 Player's Handbook, along with the Free Rules necessary to play this adventure.

The adventure, set in Greyhawk, is designed for four to six level 4 characters. Accompanying the adventure are character sheets for the six protagonists of the beloved 1980s Dungeons & Dragons animated series: Bobby, Diana, Eric, Hank, Presto, and Sheila, all presented in young adulthood. The seventh character sheet presents Niko, a Cleric from a different set of adventurers who recently tumbled into the D&D multiverse. Each player can choose one of these characters or provide a character of their own.

Goodman Games published a complete 5E Temple of Elemental Evil conversion, which also included reprints of the original AD&D module. 

There was also a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, released in the distant past.

Now they are going back to the Temple of Elemental Evil, again?

Iirc return was for 3.0.