Quote from: islan;457543In SavW you get a free attack on someone when they Withdraw From Combat, so long as they were adjacent to you.  If you are referring to "not being able to shoot at someone as they run from cover to cover", that's what the Hold rules are for.  I personally hate AoO's as they are described in D&D 3e, but that's all up to personal taste.

Hm.. I could swear the Combat Reflexes edge - or another edge - gave you a free attack when someone ran up to or by you, but I'm away from my books and don't remember it clearly.

Quote from: jcfiala;457562Hm.. I could swear the Combat Reflexes edge - or another edge - gave you a free attack when someone ran up to or by you, but I'm away from my books and don't remember it clearly.

You're thinking about the First Strike Edge.  And while it exists in the game, it is reserved to an Edge, and not an inherit rule in the game.

I played original Deadlands and found the rules flavorful but cumbersome, what with the dice, chips, cards, and what have you.

I gave Savage Worlds a try and found it way too tactical to my taste.

I skimmed the Deadlands Reloaded rules and was dismayed to see that most of the flavor from the various supernatural powers had been reduced to window dressing.

Quote from: jibbajibba;457541My only problem with the RAW combat rules to be honest is that there is no attack of opportunity option. So if you are playing with minis characters can run across your field of fire there is no base rule to target them. This is a side effect of the movement system running in full movement in initiaitive order.
I did work out a tactical movement optional system for use in combats where in close

Well, there is the "Withdrawing From Combat" free attack option...not the same thing, obviously, but close. We have tended to apply that to anyone leaving melee range, whether or not they actually engaged the enemy (essentially a free shot while anyone runs by). The more "cinematic" you want your game to be, the lighter I would go on this rule...(maybe only applying it to Wild Cards, etc) as it definitely does restrict your field of battle more.

Something more like traditional Attacks of Opportunity are there...covered under the First Strike Edge.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;457604I skimmed the Deadlands Reloaded rules and was dismayed to see that most of the flavor from the various supernatural powers had been reduced to window dressing.

I agreed with this, at least somewhat, originally...and began work on porting over my favorite stuff. Then they hired a line developer who felt the same way I did and started doing my work for me...=)

Quote from: islan;457543In SavW you get a free attack on someone when they Withdraw From Combat, so long as they were adjacent to you.  If you are referring to "not being able to shoot at someone as they run from cover to cover", that's what the Hold rules are for.  I personally hate AoO's as they are described in D&D 3e, but that's all up to personal taste.

I dislike 3e AoO rules as well. The hold rules nearly work but you need to have an initiative action to go on hold I think. So in the first round of a fight the opponent who wins initiative even by a single point on the cards he can move 6" and engage with you you don't get to shoot him after he's run the first 10 yards.

So take this example.
Bob and Frank stand in the dusty St Antonio street. Bob is holding a loaded pistol Frank has a shovel. (We have already established that Bob did not 'get the drop' on Frank). They draw initiative Bob gets a Jack but Frank gets a Queen. Frank can now move 12 yards and strike Bob with a shovel before Bob can shoot him.

All I did was say that you can switch to a tactical movement option when this matters so now the guy with Queen moves an inch (2 yards) for each initiative point they get above the next guy in the stack so in this case he moves an inches (2 yards) then Bob can shoot.  If Frank had beaten Bob by a clear 6 points he could have closed and attacked. You can extend this for the whole movement stack.
In effect each inch of movement 'costs' a point of initiative.

I suggested that on the Peginc boards and the rules mongers got very upset they are a bit protective.

Quote from: jibbajibba;457636So take this example.
Bob and Frank stand in the dusty St Antonio street. Bob is holding a loaded pistol Frank has a shovel. (We have already established that Bob did not 'get the drop' on Frank). They draw initiative Bob gets a Jack but Frank gets a Queen. Frank can now move 12 yards and strike Bob with a shovel before Bob can shoot him.

All I did was say that you can switch to a tactical movement option when this matters so now the guy with Queen moves an inch (2 yards) for each initiative point they get above the next guy in the stack so in this case he moves an inches (2 yards) then Bob can shoot.  If Frank had beaten Bob by a clear 6 points he could have closed and attacked. You can extend this for the whole movement stack.
In effect each inch of movement 'costs' a point of initiative.

I suggested that on the Peginc boards and the rules mongers got very upset they are a bit protective.

Huh.

I like that, actually. The biggest downside I see is that it'll slow things down a bit, so I would probably only allow it with Wild Cards, for instance (and ignore it altogether in more "High Action/Cinematic" games)...but for a somewhat more dangerous battlefield, that's pretty neat.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;457638Huh.

I like that, actually. The biggest downside I see is that it'll slow things down a bit, so I would probably only allow it with Wild Cards, for instance (and ignore it altogether in more "High Action/Cinematic" games)...but for a somewhat more dangerous battlefield, that's pretty neat.

I find if you only use it when it's tactically critical then it works fine. Its a bit like switching to Matrix style bullet time when it all gets critical

I have no problem with minis, battlemats, dice, cards or tokens I just find all at once very fiddly.

Fast Furious Fun?

In game play maybe but in terms of set up and pack up time I'm afraid not.

I do love card initiative with the Joker though. The idea that you can act whenever is just awesome.

Quote from: Ian Warner;457642I have no problem with minis, battlemats, dice, cards or tokens I just find all at once very fiddly.

Fast Furious Fun?

In game play maybe but in terms of set up and pack up time I'm afraid not.

I do love card initiative with the Joker though. The idea that you can act whenever is just awesome.

I don't use minis usually but when I have played with all this stuff in other GMs games its not hard. They usually have the main locations printed out on inch square paper or just use a marker on a dry wipe sheet. Can get fiddly with lots of minis in play but because there is less book keeping to track on the stus of each piece in play combats run through pretty fast.

Quote from: jibbajibba;457636So take this example.
Bob and Frank stand in the dusty St Antonio street. Bob is holding a loaded pistol Frank has a shovel. (We have already established that Bob did not 'get the drop' on Frank). They draw initiative Bob gets a Jack but Frank gets a Queen. Frank can now move 12 yards and strike Bob with a shovel before Bob can shoot him.

Yeah, but ... isn't that the same in all nearly all roleplaying games?  I know HackMaster Basic does tick-based combat like the one you are suggesting, but that's definitely a level of detail I don't really care for.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;457604I played original Deadlands and found the rules flavorful but cumbersome, what with the dice, chips, cards, and what have you.

True, but I handed some of the job of resolving all the stuff to another player. In combat, for example, there are a lot of rolls to be made. Once a player declared his action and rolled to hit, my "sub-GM" helped resolve the mechanical results while I went on to the next player...

Seanchai

Quote from: kryyst;457092As in the system derived from D&D OGL.  But I find it feels less like OGL then Mutants and Masterminds does.  

Ace's and Eights is NOT derived from d20. It is a completely new system. I just wanted to throw that out there. Seriously, the only thing close is the names of the stats. Otherwise I am hard-pressed to find anything that makes A&8 seem to be derived from d20.

As for SW and miniatures, I've been running the system for several years now,  having run Runepunk, Bioshock, Necropolis 2021, Hellfrost, and a few generic horror and fantasy games. I have never, ever needed miniatures and maps. They're optional.

It is also possible to do gritty games with the system. Realms of Cthulhu is proof of that. It just altered the way Bennies are used and Soak Rolls are made and suddenly it is a very deadly, gritty system. it made some other changes, but those are the big ones.

It's a system that is easy to customize to the needs of the campaign, perhaps more so than a lot of other games I've played and/or run, and I've been doing this for 27 years now. So if you want to emulate a genre a few minor tweaks and you have it (exhibit A: the various setting books put out by different publishers are totally compatible, yet small tweaks fit the game to the genre).

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJesta;457890Ace's and Eights is NOT derived from d20. It is a completely new system. I just wanted to throw that out there. Seriously, the only thing close is the names of the stats. Otherwise I am hard-pressed to find anything that makes A&8 seem to be derived from d20.

Yes, that's basically right. You could only say they're related in the absolute broadest sense of the word.  I think A&8s might have some D20 design-influence, in that they generally borrowed stuff that works very well there.

RPGPundit

Had fun with Deadlands back in the day but combat was too slow. Enjoy Savage worlds but these days I'm more into Space 1889 type play for that period and use the Savage Worlds Space 1889: Red Sands instead. Will eventually get Deadlands Reloaded if I get a hunkering for Deadlands again. The new catalog book for DR looks interesting, not sure how useable it is outside of Deadlands though.

Not played The Flood yet, but liked what I saw of the free download.

Savage Worlds can be made more gritty, fewer to no bennies, trim edges down etc. there's an example of this in the free Crime City / Moscow Connection download(s).
http://peginc.com/downloads.html

Took me years to really try out Savage Worlds, the Explorer's Edition did it for me. $10 full color corebook. The free test drive rules + lots of free adventures help too.