So, anyhow, one of my gamer buddies and I have been discussing our likes and dislikes concerning d20. One of his big preferences is that "anyone should have at least a narrow, thin chance at doing anything". He dislikes the idea that a level 1 or 2 character, even if he takes 20, won't be able to do something on his best day and effort ever that is a DC 30 or 35. (Sort of the "even the pissboy should have a chance to outwit the chancellor once in a great while").

Agree with what he wants or no, what he's talking about is making a d20 open-ended; meaning, if you score a nat 20 on your skill roll, you can roll another d20, and so on. I asked him how this would work with Take 20, and he didn't have an answer for me. So I'm trying to get some folks' thoughts on this--if he wanted to do this sort of mechanic or aspect for his game, what do you think he'd have to do to make it fit & work well?

I'm sure there's 14,000 ways you can come up for it NOT to work; I'm more interested in how it COULD for him.

And I am an old Rolemaster fan, so I do sort of appreciate his "just give me a tiny, tiny chance" sort of approach there.  

(I also have gotten into the practice (with a nod to jrients) of allowing players to "supercharge" one roll per session with a d30, but that's sort of a different topic).

sounds like a neat variant, would love to try it.  but yeah, i guess you'd have to can the "take 20" mechanic as a trade-off.  

maybe not, tho.  taking 20 can only be done if you have plenty of time and aren't threatened, right?  so you can try the "open 20" at any time, then.  and even if they take the time to take 20 and blow it, the odds are pretty long (but still possible) to nat. 20 then keep going.  let the players try it and add the drama?  

not playing d20 at the moment, so i have no idea how this would work in practice.

In the game I was playing until recently, my DM counted a roll of 20 as 30, and a roll of 1 as -10.

I guess you could also say that a roll of 19 or 20 adds and re-rolls (and maybe a roll of 1 or 2 counts as 'roll another d20 and you've scored minus that amount').

I've used it and it works fine. For take 20 you count the 20 as having been rolled, and so roll another d20 to add to it. So you're actually Taking (d20 + 20).

You'll have to decide whether the open-endedness can yo-yo back and forth. For instance, if you roll a 20 and then a 1, do you roll again and subtract? I'd suggest limiting the direction of open-endedness to avoid the yo-yo effect. It doesn't happen often, but it's been my experience that it's more annoying then fun when you're bouncing up and down.

We eventually dropped it though, because we found that except in extreme circumstances an open-ended 1 was still an automatic failure, and an open-ended 20 was still an automatic hit.

Quote from: James McMurrayI've used it and it works fine. For take 20 you count the 20 as having been rolled, and so roll another d20 to add to it. So you're actually Taking (d20 + 20).

This was my first thought and I think it's a fine way to do it.

In my games at home, I let someone add another roll of a d20 to a natural 20 and have them roll and subtract the total from a 1. Presumably, you can go on infinitely (I had one player roll that d20 three times for one roll), but it's unlikely. On a '1', they roll and subtract, and another '20' would cause them to roll again and subtract.

It's a little awkward, but it doesn't come up often. For Take20, I wouldn't allow it. I assume it's the product of luck and desperation. If you could take 20 to do it, total average results would just be too high. I don't want to recalculate all my expectations.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstAgree with what he wants or no, what he's talking about is making a d20 open-ended; meaning, if you score a nat 20 on your skill roll, you can roll another d20, and so on. I asked him how this would work with Take 20, and he didn't have an answer for me. So I'm trying to get some folks' thoughts on this--if he wanted to do this sort of mechanic or aspect for his game, what do you think he'd have to do to make it fit & work well?

Well, if he doesn't know what he wants, I'm not sure my answers will work, but...

1. If you roll a natural 20, you automatically succeed unless, during opposed rolls, your opponent also rolls a natural 20. If that happens, your opponent wins.

2. If you roll a natural 20, it counts as a 20 and then you add some other set amount, such as +30. (This is a rule from Unearthed Arcana.)

Seanchai

Take 20 on a skill check is far and away from rolling a D20.

Taking 20 means that there is no chance of failure and that it's the best you can do under your normal circumstances, with no pressure and at your skill level.

Your proposed chance in a million mentality is the antithesis of what Taking 20 is about.  Use take 20 when time and other factors aren't an issue.  If you want to take your chance then you roll, hope for a 20 and roll again open ended style.  If you want to be able to just effectively take 20 or 30 or 40 - whatever.  That is implying that what you are doing has no risk and that eventually you will exceed.  If that's the case then taking 30 takes 30 rounds, 40 - 40 rounds etc....

The bottom line is that the roll implicates there are consequences for failure or you can't spend as long as you want on it.

I'd make taking 30 take a lot longer than 30 rounds. The idea behind take 20 is that you roll every possible number before you get to 20 (hence the x20 timing). To do that with taking 30 you'd have to roll all the way from 1 - 20 ten times, so the task would take you 200x as long as a single test.

That to me would make it both more workable and closer to balanced, although I'd probably restrict the cutoff points to 20, 25, 30, etc. to avoid people doing a quick bit of math and figuring out exactly how long to take.