I agree with your post, but if I might, I'd like to address this one, specific element:

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908876Cyborg implants are coming around, and shockingly they don't really mess with your soul.

I feel we're still long from seeing that kind of cyber-enhancements as presented by CP work of fictions/RPGs. And judging by how smartphones (and similar pieces of mobile hardware) changes the way people think, act and interact with each other and the environment, I wouldn't scrap the idea of "no influence on soul".

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908877I feel we're still long from seeing that kind of cyber-enhancements as presented by CP work of fictions/RPGs. And judging by how smartphones (and similar pieces of mobile hardware) changes the way people think, act and interact with each other and the environment, I wouldn't scrap the idea of "no influence on soul".

I definitely see where your coming from, and agree with the smartphone bit. But we are already starting to see bionic leg and arm replacements, ocular implants, hearing implants, ect so the fundamentals aren't that far off. I honestly think the Deus Ex approach to cyberware is the best. Rather than it be the cyberware that changes you, it's how people treat those who were enhanced that creates the real impact. It's the people who think that you're a wealthy cheater buying your way through life by enhancing your brain with implants that causes you to feel less human. I think it offers a lot more roleplaying situations for the player, as they are playing off of how other people treat them, and have more real life experience to work with (all those times you felt like shit because you had X that allowed you to get an edge your friends didn't).

In magical cyberpunk settings, I'm more okay with messing with the soul, but even then I'm not sure if it works the way it should. Shadowrun forces you to chose magic or tech, which functionally speaking is just forcing you to chose one form of technology or another, in a way. An idea I posted on the Gaming Den's "brain hacking thread" two years ago (left within two months of joining, didn't sign up to a new forum until now because of how bad the experience was) was that something should be lost both through tech or magic. In both cases you are becoming less "human", by using outside powers to enhance yourself. I kind of wanted "where man meets magic and machine" to be about man choosing to remain human or turn to the other options. But then again, I'm a "humanity, fuck yeah" kind of person so it might just be my bias showing off.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908880I definitely see where your coming from, and agree with the smartphone bit. But we are already starting to see bionic leg and arm replacements, ocular implants, hearing implants, ect so the fundamentals aren't that far off. I honestly think the Deus Ex approach to cyberware is the best. Rather than it be the cyberware that changes you, it's how people treat those who were enhanced that creates the real impact. It's the people who think that you're a wealthy cheater buying your way through life by enhancing your brain with implants that causes you to feel less human. I think it offers a lot more roleplaying situations for the player, as they are playing off of how other people treat them, and have more real life experience to work with (all those times you felt like shit because you had X that allowed you to get an edge your friends didn't).

So "modelling a mindset" rather than "direct influence"? With that I can agree.

Side note: Deus Ex.

I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone. Oh well...

QuoteIn magical cyberpunk settings, I'm more okay with messing with the soul, but even then I'm not sure if it works the way it should. Shadowrun forces you to chose magic or tech, which functionally speaking is just forcing you to chose one form of technology or another, in a way. An idea I posted on the Gaming Den's "brain hacking thread" two years ago (left within two months of joining, didn't sign up to a new forum until now because of how bad the experience was) was that something should be lost both through tech or magic. In both cases you are becoming less "human", by using outside powers to enhance yourself. I kind of wanted "where man meets magic and machine" to be about man choosing to remain human or turn to the other options. But then again, I'm a "humanity, fuck yeah" kind of person so it might just be my bias showing off.

To this day I don't understand the idea of being forced to select one path only as presented by a few games. After all, plenty of real-world scientists still believed in some esoteric/mystical stuff and it didn't prevent them from studying the world in very scientific way.

I feel that the better representation would be to allow a PC to follow both paths but become more distanced from the society - the viewpoint modeled after "science + magic makes the world go 'round" would make one's ideas hard to grasp, hard to follow, requiring very specific mind to understand and sympathize. Still, it's me.

And another side note: I miss one of a recently banned users. The guy's taste in CP-related works of fiction would be highly compatible with this thread... Oh well...

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908886So "modelling a mindset" rather than "direct influence"? With that I can agree.

Side note: Deus Ex.

I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone. Oh well...

To this day I don't understand the idea of being forced to select one path only as presented by a few games. After all, plenty of real-world scientists still believed in some esoteric/mystical stuff and it didn't prevent them from studying the world in very scientific way.

I feel that the better representation would be to allow a PC to follow both paths but become more distanced from the society - the viewpoint modeled after "science + magic makes the world go 'round" would make one's ideas hard to grasp, hard to follow, requiring very specific mind to understand and sympathize. Still, it's me.

And another side note: I miss one of a recently banned users. The guy's taste in CP-related works of fiction would be highly compatible with this thread... Oh well...

It's mostly because of Timmies and role protections. There's always going to be that guy (who probably posts to the gaming den) who's going to break the system and turn the entire campaign into a gigantic wank fest over his character. Sociopathy and social coldness isn't a negative to someone who wants to play a murderhobo. Personally, I kind of like the tech vs. magic thing, as you have the spirit world rebelling against man's tools and vice versa. One of the reasons why I like Arcana so much, despite the gameplay being atrocious. One of my fixes tends to be to divide up the "face" of the party role between everyone. Let them have distinct roles in combat and preparing for missions, but roleplaying wise I tend to play it off that every segment of society has personality types that favors one guy or another. Badass biker bar is going to react better to roided up cyborg, for example. That way people are distinct in the crunch, but have equal chances to work with the fluff. Shadowrun Returns did it very well with balancing intelligence, charisma and strength as equally viable conversation approaches.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908893It's mostly because of Timmies and role protections. There's always going to be that guy (who probably posts to the gaming den) who's going to break the system and turn the entire campaign into a gigantic wank fest over his character. Sociopathy and social coldness isn't a negative to someone who wants to play a murderhobo. Personally, I kind of like the tech vs. magic thing, as you have the spirit world rebelling against man's tools and vice versa. One of the reasons why I like Arcana so much, despite the gameplay being atrocious. One of my fixes tends to be to divide up the "face" of the party role between everyone. Let them have distinct roles in combat and preparing for missions, but roleplaying wise I tend to play it off that every segment of society has personality types that favors one guy or another. Badass biker bar is going to react better to roided up cyborg, for example. That way people are distinct in the crunch, but have equal chances to work with the fluff. Shadowrun Returns did it very well with balancing intelligence, charisma and strength as equally viable conversation approaches.

Well, "rules can't cure stupid", like people use to say.

In my case, I usually tend to talk with people prior to a session and ask them to prepare characters that I think are best suited for the gameplay, so that everyone has something to do in many different situation, instead of sitting in the shadows, playing Pokemon Go and activating his character (and attention) only in specific conditions.

I also try to avoid people who prefer to break the game rather than play it.

Arcana, Arcana... We're talking about Arcanum, right?

If you're addressing the "mechanical" part of the game (flawed UI, idiotic keybinds), then I recall a few mods that greatly change the gameplay and make the experience much more bearable.

Side note:

Arcanum -> Pathfinder translation project.. It's far from being finished, and apparently abandoned, but it's playable even at this stage.

Right, I dun goofed, Arcanum. I've checked out the mods, but honestly its not UI or Keybinds, its the fact that the fundamental gameplay sucks and a wonderful game world was ruined by tons of trashmobs and crappy combat. That and the dialogue trees are the most unforgiving I have ever seen. Usually games give you a heads up on "this is the dialogue your buffed speech skill unlocked", but Arcanum gave no warning as to what was the better option and rarely gave you side paths to achieving the same result. Solving the orc labor dispute is damn near impossible without having done it before or using an internet guide.

As for rules, I tend to run long campaigns, so I have more time to build them around the characters. I also go down the classic delta green route and give people large packages of knowledge at the start, as often knowledge tends to be gimped character build wise. Plus, I almost exclusively use Savage Worlds, where its a lot harder to build broken characters. My main issue is that I've lived in a lot of areas where RPG's aren't as well established, and my personal tastes go into Swine territory (yes, I'm a storygamer). As such, I have to find ways to integrate the pathfinder or DnD crowd, who tend to want to powergame.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908902Right, I dun goofed, Arcanum. I've checked out the mods, but honestly its not UI or Keybinds, its the fact that the fundamental gameplay sucks and a wonderful game world was ruined by tons of trashmobs and crappy combat. That and the dialogue trees are the most unforgiving I have ever seen. Usually games give you a heads up on "this is the dialogue your buffed speech skill unlocked", but Arcanum gave no warning as to what was the better option and rarely gave you side paths to achieving the same result. Solving the orc labor dispute is damn near impossible without having done it before or using an internet guide.

It has been a while since I've been playing it, so unless I'm mistaking Arcanum for some other game, I recall this being addressed. People usually respond that there's no "bad option" in Arcanum, that lack of information concerning which sentence is unlocked by what prerequisite forces the player to respond according to their personal needs, "roleplay" rather than pick the obviously best option.

It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, especially not in our times.

QuoteAs for rules, I tend to run long campaigns, so I have more time to build them around the characters. I also go down the classic delta green route and give people large packages of knowledge at the start, as often knowledge tends to be gimped character build wise. Plus, I almost exclusively use Savage Worlds, where its a lot harder to build broken characters. My main issue is that I've lived in a lot of areas where RPG's aren't as well established, and my personal tastes go into Swine territory (yes, I'm a storygamer). As such, I have to find ways to integrate the pathfinder or DnD crowd, who tend to want to powergame.

Reasonable. To accommodate oneself to the circumstances is to stay alive.

tbh. I don't exactly understand the idea of specialized players - those who select only one game (or a few very closely related) and insist on playing it all the time, rather than switch systems/settings/games every now and then. I mean, I know it's quite common, I understand the motivation behind it ("if ain't broke don't fix/change it"), but it's hard for me to accept it.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908876Industrial espionage makes a ton of sense when billions of dollars in minerals are on the line.

How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.

QuoteIt doesn't stretch plausibility to think that this could turn into a booming biotech industry, with all the ruthless competition that could follow.

Now stealing genetic data or gene-tailored cell lines does make sense. And while it is a bit trite, evil pharma and biotech companies are an easy source for RPG villainy.

And though I'm not a Shadowrun fan and don't play cyberpunk, you should still totally post stuff for people to [strike]hack[/strike] use.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908886I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone.

We have a 5000 page thread which is mostly one nice old guy reminiscing about old times in Tekumel.

Start a thread. If people are interested, they will post.



And before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I started that thread and I'm almost as old as Chirine.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908911It has been a while since I've been playing it, so unless I'm mistaking Arcanum for some other game, I recall this being addressed. People usually respond that there's no "bad option" in Arcanum, that lack of information concerning which sentence is unlocked by what prerequisite forces the player to respond according to their personal needs, "roleplay" rather than pick the obviously best option.

It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, especially not in our times.



Reasonable. To accommodate oneself to the circumstances is to stay alive.

tbh. I don't exactly understand the idea of specialized players - those who select only one game (or a few very closely related) and insist on playing it all the time, rather than switch systems/settings/games every now and then. I mean, I know it's quite common, I understand the motivation behind it ("if ain't broke don't fix/change it"), but it's hard for me to accept it.

While I do enjoy roleplaying, the problem with CRPGs vs face to face is that they tend to be binary. Let's say there are three different options for that labor strike, all of which are supportive or offer alternative solutions. In a CRPG, most likely only one of them is going to be the one that actually ends it the way I want it to end. All of them also seem equally appealing from a roleplaying point of view, as I am a labor supporter in favor of orc rights. As such, I don't know which one of these flavors is going to accomplish what I want. This is why that signaling is so important. It tells the players "amongst the options you like and fit your character, this is the one that uses your character to the fullest and accomplishes your end goal." If I were face to face with a gm, I could creatively persuade him. With a computer, you're basically playing a character design puzzle. This is why branching solutions are so important, as they allow you to "fail" the character design puzzle and still roleplay your ideal end state. Assembling evidence, hidden away in a defended lair, which convinces the orc labor leader to stand down, allows a fighter character to still support orc labor rights and push the world where you want it to go, but without the arbitrary charisma or speech skill cap.

For me, I tend to stick to savage worlds because RPG systems can be very complex and tough to master. Until you master them, especially as a GM, roleplaying is extremely difficult and gameplay flow can be broken up. Plus, RPGs are quite setting dependent, so in order to play a character who grew up in the world you tend to need to do a substantial amount of reading to be able to understand what your character has experienced.

Quote from: Bren;908914How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.

Now stealing genetic data or gene-tailored cell lines does make sense. And while it is a bit trite, evil pharma and biotech companies are an easy source for RPG villainy.

And though I'm not a Shadowrun fan and don't play cyberpunk, you should still totally post stuff for people to [strike]hack[/strike] use.

Geological surveys of mineral fields are incredibly expensive and could potentially be worth billions of dollars. Back during the early Kabila years in the DRC (early 2000's) he was buying the support of major traders and mercenaries with geological data alone. Finding out where your competitors found a new vein of Cobalt could be worth millions to the right people, and well worth sending in a team to break and enter. Or, better yet, finding out who's taking bribes in the region those fields are, so you can then flip them, seize the land, and start mining ASAP.

As for Bio-Tech, I tend to avoid playing the companies as straight up evil. Say you have a company cutting corners with HIV treatment tests in Niger that go wrong. The company may have been trying to make a few extra bucks, but the people who run it also probably actually wanted to help the fight against HIV. There are few people who consciously act evilly, for the most part the value system they exist in provides a framework for how they think, the results of which can lead to evil. Playing with those value systems is, in my view, what makes Cyberpunk such a fun genre when done well. When done poorly (Shadowrun), it just becomes a wankfest about how much capitalism sucks.

I'll definitely do a write up of my Africa-Punk setting. Living in Rwanda for half a year gave me a ton of ideas for modern RPGs

Quote from: Bren;908915We have a 5000 page thread which is mostly one nice old guy reminiscing about old times in Tekumel.

Start a thread. If people are interested, they will post.

Naaah, I have enough bad rep already. No need for "...and now the guy talks about vidya! On my tabletop RPG-related forum! Woe is us, hear us, oh Lord"... and such. Those hurt butts need time to heal.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908936Naaah, I have enough bad rep already. No need for "...and now the guy talks about vidya! On my tabletop RPG-related forum! Woe is us, hear us, oh Lord"... and such. Those hurt butts need time to heal.

We have a video games forum, Other Games.

Ok Opa

Initiative
1d10+Ref+(Ref Boosts if you have them)+(Solo Combat Sense if you are one) Fast Draw lets you add +3 Init and -3 penalty.

Actions
You get one unless you take an additional action at -3.  Shoot three guys? Sure, -6 to all three shots.

Shooting

• You need a target number based on range, this varies from 5 to 30 stepping by 5.
• You roll REF+Skill+1d10.  This will have bonuses or penalties based on scopes, movement, lighting, etc.  It's like any other list of mods, you internalize it quickly.
• There is 3 round burst, autofire, and suppressing fire.
• Armor soaks damage.
• There are hit locations, but that is used only to determine whether you have armor coverage where you are hit.  Your wound pool is the same.  A bullet in the arm and one in the leg takes off of total body injury. (Head shots do double damage.)
• You have a body type modifier that absorbs damage just like in Warhammer Toughness (weapon damage and armor values though make Naked Samurai Syndrome unlikely).

So how fast is it?  A guy walks into a bar with a shotgun or an assault rifle where there's not good cover, it's splattertime.
You have guys armored up, taking cover that absorbs fire like concrete or steel and being careful, you'll have to level the building to get them out.

It's the only system I'll have to say makes sense.  All the stupid little abstractions and dissociations that creep their way into other firearms rules aren't really here.  Everything for the most part makes sense and is related to actual values of the elements in the real world.  Simulation gets a bad name because of Phoenix Command and the like, but CP2020 proved you can do firearms right.

Order of speed:
Player sending Tweet/short IM
Player's Turn in Friday Night Firefight
Player Sending Email
Player's Turn with multiple guys using Supressive Fire in the same turn.

Wow, that's like the dream ideas hammered out by friends seeking to make their own system. Totally going to forward that info to them.

Seems very discrete in components (range increment penalties; environmental and equipment mods as desired; armor soaks; hit location checks armor coverage; etc.). That actually saves time for any dialing up or down of these components. I'd almost say modular, as the parts seem removable to change for genre needs -- but perhaps that may cause unforeseen chaos.

I'd appreciate any learning failures from house ruling. What should I not tinker with? How strong is this chassis for DIY madness?

i.e. I am wondering if it would be faster to emulate Cinematic Cyberpunk (when the mood strikes!) by just adding Plot Armor as actual armor with defined soak + coverage? Or would it be better to use a higher "Toughness" value and heavily restrict armor availability?

Quote from: IskandarKebab;908918I'll definitely do a write up of my Africa-Punk setting. Living in Rwanda for half a year gave me a ton of ideas for modern RPGs

Do it. Please.