Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;969868I just did - the first four results were various articles from The Guardian, and the fifth result was this thread.

And so did I... Nothing yet.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;969868I just did - the first four results were various articles from The Guardian, and the fifth result was this thread.

Ha. Yes, you should put Guardians of Order in quotes.

Quote from: Baron Opal;969879Ha. Yes, you should put Guardians of Order in quotes.

This seems to be an interesting thread on the topic if it hasn't been linked already.

Quote from: Omega;967319I dont know. He wouldnt say and I eventually got fed up with him complaining about being ripped off but refusing to name names "for fear of damaging his carreer" which means he was enabling the rip-off publisher to screw over someone else. He wasnt using his designer account so there was no way to just check.

Theres another publisher thats done it that I know of but I cant find the thread now. Mayfair I believe. But Im likely wrong.

I don't know about anything that allegedly happened at Mayfair Games, I would be very interested to hear about it however, and their current CEO Pete Fenlon, used to be the CEO of Iron Crown Enterprises, ICE, Publisher of both Middle Earth Roleplaying, as well as Rolemaster, and I do have a few words to share about that.

Before ICE went bankrupt in 1999 they went through 2-3 rough years. In 1995 I was offered a job as a writer for Rolemaster, however, declined that offer because Pete only offered 4c per word, with no profit sharing, royalties, or any other benefits, ...so hack contract writing. Monte Cook had already quit working for ICE in 1990, and from 1992-1995 I was making plenty of good money working for the DoD as a contractor just as they were prepping for Desert Storm and right after, and Pete offered me the chance to live waaaaayy below the poverty line just so I could write for Rolemaster and MERP. It was tempting just for the cred, but right about that time, Tolkien Enterprises pulled the ICE RPG license, and they only had Rolemaster and Terry Amthor's Shadow World. Now Terry had started ICE, but was no longer in charge of the company when it tanked, and that would be, of course, Pete.

In the 1999-2000 Bankruptcy proceedings I joined a group led by Stephen Lee to bid on the IP in Bankruptcy Court, and we bid almost into six figures but were outbid by another European group that Bruce and Heike had found that ensured they would get to continue working on the "New"  Rolemaster RPG. Considering they went into bankruptcy (and had not paid many of their other contract writers that had worked on MERP and delivered books that were published - There are at least two writers that I know personally, one of whom I see almost every day right now who have told me and confirmed outright they were never paid the royalties they were owed for the sales of the books they had written for ICE. ...So I was glad I didn't sign up to get screwed over like some of my friends did.

Later on I ran into Pete at GenCon, right when he started working for Mayfair in 2007, and caught him smack talking about me, to Larry Roznai (MayFair President) on the dealer room floor, even though he was the one who had tried to drive me into poverty, and had screwed over a couple of my writer friends, ....the fkin nerve of some people, eyyy?

Anyway in 2011 Bruce and Heike and their secret Euro partners ....and whomever else had outbid us in the bankruptcy proceedings managed to tank ICE yet again, and in yet another bid by Nicholas Caldwell (He was part of our 2000 bidding group), Nicholas got the rights to take over ICE, and he's been working on it since 2011, but the sneaky skulking behind the scenes, and the surprise coup-de-tat in the 2000 bankruptcy proceedings had driven off most of the quality gaming people in the U.S. with investment money, who were willing to sustain ICE until it achieved profitability. It was a complete & thorough RPG system with incredible depth and detail worth playing, but I sold my books in 2001 because of all of the deception and troublesome entanglements ICE had, ...owing their writers and all...

It is true, that Tolkien Enterprises didn't play nice when they pulled the MERP license from ICE, but even in their most troubled times in bankruptcy, ICE turned on their truest fans, who would have put everything they had into making Rolemaster and Shadow Worlds, and other IP awesome again. This whole episode was pretty much forgotten though, when just a couple months later WOTC released 3e and the d20 SRD, and all the Indy publishers that had not been working for ICE or TSR rushed in to start making d20 books.

Today, I can recommend Rolemaster, for fans who really like it, and for fans that want some in-depth verisimilitude for their RPG, because Nicholas Caldwell is running the show at Ice, and he is a quality act, and RoleMaster is a great game, but I'm personally past the time when I would enjoy playing that game.

I think I saw Larry Roznai last Saturday at Origins, but I don't remember seeing Pete. He's harder to spot these days though cause he had cut his long hair and beard a few years back (like 2011, or so, the last time I remember seeing him.)

What has Mayfair been doing lately? ...is something nefarious or disreputable? I'd be interested to know so I could warn others to steer clear.

Quote from: san dee jota;967833I dunno'.  I'll agree that "pay me or you don't get to play in my game" types go nowhere quick, but I'm sure there are people out there who have a hard time finding a reliable, good GM and -are- be willing to pay for the service.  I forget the guy's name, but there's at least one guy pulling ~$30k doing it full time.  He doesn't get benefits, and it's a pretty crummy sounding career for my tastes, but he's having fun and helping people meet like minded gamers (i.e. folks who can't find groups else wise).  Also, there's all those folks charging $XXXX to play a campaign with developers/writers/etc. as part of a Kickstarter reward tier (like... say... Exalted).

I mean, people -do- pay for GMing now, and it's not inherently assholish on the part of the GM.

(and now this whole thing reminds me of arguments about legalized prostitution.  But without the VD element I hope)

Eh, I saw games going for $10 just to attend a 4 hour slot at Origins this last weekend, It's the same at GenCon you know. Pay-to-Play is a thing. The GMs don't get that money though. The Conventions do. $1/hr per game is average ticket price at Origins, multiply that by 20 for your average gaming weekend, and then by about 14,000 for attendance, and pay-to-play is a profitable thing, and that's just for the RPGs.

And finally, concerning Onyx Games and the new Vampire games. I think they just got the Kiss of Death over on Medium, ...see for yourself...

https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03

Quote from: GameDaddy;969929And finally, concerning Onyx Games and the new Vampire games. I think they just got the Kiss of Death over on Medium, ...see for yourself...

https://medium.com/@vldarling/new-games-old-heartbreaks-60c469c5ea03

That's the same person who was quoted in the Twitter convos and who's been posting on the old Exalted team's behalf.  I'm not really counting it as a new blow to either new WW or OP.

Honestly, from my understanding, the preview rules are doing a bigger job of hurting the new Vampire than anything anybody blogging on Medium could do.  But I haven't read it, just heard people complaining here and about.

That blog from Medium is very poorly argued. That author would also be triggered by the original Dracula novel, Let the Right One In and Interview with a Vampire.

All have strong subtextual and overt content regarding sexual assault and the murder and feeding on of children. If that content triggers you you should probably stay away from vampire stories and/or games about vampires in general.

I've been waiting a bit to drop this (related) deuce on this thread but...
For some interested and getting back on topic...

I wonder if the dev complaint team realizes that David A Hill is the same David A Hill Jr. who has mismanaged five or six out of seven Kickstarters. Link
Hard to blame a falling monkey for grabbing any branch available, but at the same time it doesn't exactly strengthen you position either.

As I said before no one is innocent in this whole thing.

Quote from: Dumarest;969844Allegations without evidence. So, Internet SOP.

Shit, it's not just internet. I'm a manager where I work and I'm constantly getting told by my director to write-up employees based on nothing more than rumors and hearsay. Fucking soul-crushing considering I work for a large Christian-based healthcare organization.

Quote from: HappyDaze;970348Shit, it's not just internet. I'm a manager where I work and I'm constantly getting told by my director to write-up employees based on nothing more than rumors and hearsay. Fucking soul-crushing considering I work for a large Christian-based healthcare organization.

Can't you just quote Matthew: "But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well."

Quote from: Dumarest;970354Can't you just quote Matthew: "But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well."

Sure, I could do that, but I don't think it would be very satisfying when my next stop turns out to be the hotseat in HR. It's definitely a job that requires a lot of drinking the company Kool-Aid, interspersed with a bit of shouting  "Oh Yeah!" even when inside you're thinking WTF? It's not really a place I want to be, but I'll keep my head down for another year or so while they pay for my Master's degree.

Looks like someone else tried to start a thread on the topic over at TBP and it got closed.

"Hey folks. We had to close a thread on this topic the last time it came up, for a couple of reasons."

Best not to mention them then.  Better to let people find out when they're causing problems for Op... er... the mods... er... the forums when they come up.

"On the side of open and honest modding"

The thread was closed and the links in the OP to the material in question were deleted by mod.

So I guess this isn't part of the open and honest modding you want?

"it was difficult for us to moderate a thread on these issues without an appearance of conflict of interest given how many of us have worked or still work for OP."

No shit.  Best to just silence all discussion on it.

"On the side of desperately wanting to set the record straight, but being bound by confidentiality and professional and personal concerns, I must also circumspectly add that there is a lot more going on than these one-sided sources indicate, and a little digging can offer some insight"  

So you all but call Holden and the others in that materials liars and say "there is a lot more going on", and then have nothing to back it up with.  

I mean, I get this is all "he said/he said" pretty much, but at least Holden's rant thread has specific quotes about specific things.  And -then- you have other people saying similar.  The best I've seen in rebuttal so far is FVB saying "they did right by me", which is good, but that doesn't mean OPP isn't screwing over other people.

"but I can't speak further."

The hell you can't.  You closed a thread and then made sure you got the last word in (I'm honestly a bit surprised more mods didn't jump in to get in their jabs, of course that would show their bias).  Want to be professional: just close the goddamn thread.

(sad thing: after watching Holden go SJW on Mark Hagen for daring to work with nuWW in any capacity, I almost couldn't care less what problems the little shit had with OPP.)

Quote from: san dee jota;970403I mean, I get this is all "he said/he said" pretty much, but at least Holden's rant thread has specific quotes about specific things.  And -then- you have other people saying similar.  The best I've seen in rebuttal so far is FVB saying "they did right by me", which is good, but that doesn't mean OPP isn't screwing over other people.

At base, I know about twenty people who would love to say shit about this and clear the air, but honestly, I'm not going to be the first person to do it.  I said what I feel comfortable saying without driving anybody under a bus.  And that's the same thing with the mod staff -- I'm not divulging anything private when I say some of the people getting badmouthed are mods at RPG.net, and some of the people doing the badmouthing are also mods at RPG.net.  There is no way to discuss the issue without somebody getting attacked, and not everybody deserves it.  So they're just shutting down discussion, I guess.  

The thing is, there are plenty of places to talk about it.  There's here, for example.  There's the imgur thread, the podcast site, there's Reddit, I don't know, maybe there's OP or WW or fan-forums, I don't keep up with that shit.  But there's literally no way for the conversation to be had because part of being a dedicated hobby person is sometimes you freelance and sometimes you also mod forums.  Sometimes there's a conflict.  (Like, you guys have been saying there's a conflict for years.  Even if I disagree with most of the examples people give, this is flat-out an example of one.)

But I suspect if the people involved have not stepped up to defend themselves or give the other side of the story by now, it's not going to happen, and I ain't going to be the guy to do it.  Ive said all I can feel comfortable saying without being caught in the same conflict everybody else is caught in.