Loving the discussion and reading all of your posts, some very good insight on different ways to do it, liked the Video games to Tabletop comparison, might playtest it soonish.

I think this is one of those cases where Rolemaster has something interesting to add, with all those tables.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143077Care to expand on the SW mechanics or point me to a free pdf of such intro?

Speaking PURELY mechanically... normally we narrate our combat as we go for fun. Plus the game gives you a lot of options (called shots, bypassing armor, Tricks, etc).

Basic Combat
So basically every character has a Parry rating. It's a derived stat from your Fighting Skill. Your Parry Rating is you Fighting skill die /2 + 2.

Fighting = Melee combat skill. All skills (and stats) in Savage Worlds are based on a die-code. So normal people have d4's for their stats. Human maximum is d12. Skills are tied directly to stats in that when you're advancing your skills you can't advance a skill beyond its corresponding stat-die code without paying an extra penalty cost.

SO...

Let's pretend you're a trained fighter and you have a Fighting skill of d8. Your Parry is a 6 (8/2+2=6). So anyone trying to physically attack you has to roll their Fighting die and beat your Parry Rating.

Let's extend this further - lets pretend you're squaring off against an Orc Lieutenant with a d6 Fighting (but he's REALLY big - Strength d10). His Parry is a 5.

In combat you would roll your Fighting d8 plus a Wild Die (d6) and you take the higher number. Dice Explode on a max roll. You don't add the Wild Die, you just choose whichever die is higher. So if you roll a 3 on your d8, and you roll a 6 on your d6 Wild Die - you choose the Wild Die result. Plus since you rolled a 6 it explodes. You roll again and add it.

If your attack is greater than your opponents Parry - you Hit. If you roll 4 higher than what you needed to hit, you get what's called a Raise. Every increment of 4 is an additional Raise.


Damage
Every character has a Stamina stat. Like Parry you half the stat and add +2. That's your Toughness rating.

When you receive damage, the attacker then rolls damage against your Toughness score. So let's say your Strength is d8 and you're using a longsword. Longswords do Str+d8 damage. You'd roll 2d8 against the Orc's Toughness (let's say he's burly and has an d8 Stamina - so a Toughness of 6).

So lets say you roll a 5 and a 3 for a total of 8. You score higher than his Toughness of 6 but not enough to get a Raise. So the Orc is now Shaken. Shaken is a condition that essentially means he's stunned. When you're Shaken you have to spend an action and attempt to Shake it off (Spirit check), or you spend a Bennie and instantly shake it off. Caveats to this are - if you take any other Shaken results while Shaken, they're converted to Wounds.

You only get *3* Wounds before you're out/dying/maimed too much to fight.

Let's take it another way -

With your 2d8 (dice still explode) let's say you roll an 8 and a 4. The 8 explodes and you get another 6. So a total of 18! The Orc's Toughness is 6, so that's a hit + two Raises!

Anytime you get a Raise on a Damage roll each Raise is considered a Wound. Every Wound incurs a -2 penalty on all action checks. So not only is the Orc wounded and near death, but he's still Shaken and has to recover from that before he can react against you.


Permutations - This assumes the Orc Lieutenant in this demonstration is a Wildcard (basically an Important NPC). PC's are always treated as Wildcards. Wildcards get Wounds. Non-Wildcards - Mooks, are killed if they take any Wounds. This allows PC's to fight hordes of minions - but don't think that such hordes aren't dangerous. There are a LOT of other options that can modify these rules. Multiple-Attacks, gang-up tactics, various Edges that give you bonuses to do certain Manuevers. Or Tricks - which don't inflict damage but give you the Shaken condition. Gear qualities, etc.

Benefits -

- Deathspiral. Small but significant. -1 for every Wound you have can be a serious issue in Savage Worlds
- Degrees of Success. Raises are huge in this game. It can change the flow of combat with a single good roll.
- Small Numeric calculation. Since Savage Worlds uses very low numbers, all the calculations are quick. Non-combat task resolution requires a 4 as a standard difficulty.
- Robust modifiers from Gear, Edges, Environmental benefits (and penalties).

And in the hands of a good GM, it's quite cinematic/gritty etc. as you please.

For our game, we use two types of hit points: Vitality (that represent avoiding attacks, but getting worn down and tired) and Wounds (that represent real damage).  A relatively tough 1st level character might have 12 WP and 12 VP; WP grow slowly while VP grow quickly; a 3rd level character might have 20 WP and 36 VP.  Most enemies also have the two categories.

When you run out of VP, you are wounded and take penalties.  It is possible to take wound damage while you still have VP.  As a result, there's always a threat of 'being less effective' which can make a 'sure thing' feel like it isn't.  Players have some ability to reduce wound damage (convert to VP) so it mostly works out to sometimes getting lucky against a monster and making them less scary...  That said, when you go from VP damage to WP damage, things 'get real' - the stakes feel higher and a character worries about what that next hit will do.

Quote from: tenbones;1143317Speaking PURELY mechanically... normally we narrate our combat as we go for fun. Plus the game gives you a lot of options (called shots, bypassing armor, Tricks, etc).

Basic Combat
So basically every character has a Parry rating. It's a derived stat from your Fighting Skill. Your Parry Rating is you Fighting skill die /2 + 2.

Fighting = Melee combat skill. All skills (and stats) in Savage Worlds are based on a die-code. So normal people have d4's for their stats. Human maximum is d12. Skills are tied directly to stats in that when you're advancing your skills you can't advance a skill beyond its corresponding stat-die code without paying an extra penalty cost.

SO...

Let's pretend you're a trained fighter and you have a Fighting skill of d8. Your Parry is a 6 (8/2+2=6). So anyone trying to physically attack you has to roll their Fighting die and beat your Parry Rating.

Let's extend this further - lets pretend you're squaring off against an Orc Lieutenant with a d6 Fighting (but he's REALLY big - Strength d10). His Parry is a 5.

In combat you would roll your Fighting d8 plus a Wild Die (d6) and you take the higher number. Dice Explode on a max roll. You don't add the Wild Die, you just choose whichever die is higher. So if you roll a 3 on your d8, and you roll a 6 on your d6 Wild Die - you choose the Wild Die result. Plus since you rolled a 6 it explodes. You roll again and add it.

If your attack is greater than your opponents Parry - you Hit. If you roll 4 higher than what you needed to hit, you get what's called a Raise. Every increment of 4 is an additional Raise.


Damage
Every character has a Stamina stat. Like Parry you half the stat and add +2. That's your Toughness rating.

When you receive damage, the attacker then rolls damage against your Toughness score. So let's say your Strength is d8 and you're using a longsword. Longswords do Str+d8 damage. You'd roll 2d8 against the Orc's Toughness (let's say he's burly and has an d8 Stamina - so a Toughness of 6).

So lets say you roll a 5 and a 3 for a total of 8. You score higher than his Toughness of 6 but not enough to get a Raise. So the Orc is now Shaken. Shaken is a condition that essentially means he's stunned. When you're Shaken you have to spend an action and attempt to Shake it off (Spirit check), or you spend a Bennie and instantly shake it off. Caveats to this are - if you take any other Shaken results while Shaken, they're converted to Wounds.

You only get *3* Wounds before you're out/dying/maimed too much to fight.

Let's take it another way -

With your 2d8 (dice still explode) let's say you roll an 8 and a 4. The 8 explodes and you get another 6. So a total of 18! The Orc's Toughness is 6, so that's a hit + two Raises!

Anytime you get a Raise on a Damage roll each Raise is considered a Wound. Every Wound incurs a -2 penalty on all action checks. So not only is the Orc wounded and near death, but he's still Shaken and has to recover from that before he can react against you.


Permutations - This assumes the Orc Lieutenant in this demonstration is a Wildcard (basically an Important NPC). PC's are always treated as Wildcards. Wildcards get Wounds. Non-Wildcards - Mooks, are killed if they take any Wounds. This allows PC's to fight hordes of minions - but don't think that such hordes aren't dangerous. There are a LOT of other options that can modify these rules. Multiple-Attacks, gang-up tactics, various Edges that give you bonuses to do certain Manuevers. Or Tricks - which don't inflict damage but give you the Shaken condition. Gear qualities, etc.

Benefits -

- Deathspiral. Small but significant. -1 for every Wound you have can be a serious issue in Savage Worlds
- Degrees of Success. Raises are huge in this game. It can change the flow of combat with a single good roll.
- Small Numeric calculation. Since Savage Worlds uses very low numbers, all the calculations are quick. Non-combat task resolution requires a 4 as a standard difficulty.
- Robust modifiers from Gear, Edges, Environmental benefits (and penalties).

And in the hands of a good GM, it's quite cinematic/gritty etc. as you please.

Okay, now I get it, might need to ask forgiveness and buy the core rules.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1143542For our game, we use two types of hit points: Vitality (that represent avoiding attacks, but getting worn down and tired) and Wounds (that represent real damage).  A relatively tough 1st level character might have 12 WP and 12 VP; WP grow slowly while VP grow quickly; a 3rd level character might have 20 WP and 36 VP.  Most enemies also have the two categories.

When you run out of VP, you are wounded and take penalties.  It is possible to take wound damage while you still have VP.  As a result, there's always a threat of 'being less effective' which can make a 'sure thing' feel like it isn't.  Players have some ability to reduce wound damage (convert to VP) so it mostly works out to sometimes getting lucky against a monster and making them less scary...  That said, when you go from VP damage to WP damage, things 'get real' - the stakes feel higher and a character worries about what that next hit will do.

I use a similar mechanic, except my "VP" doesn't include avoiding attacks (DEP Dodge Evade Parry takes care of that and it's separate from your AC), and HP are your wound points.

I use D6 system, mostly D6 fantasy but with much of D6 star wars included, so basically don't get hit, a death spiral is certainly possible given that wounds penalize rolls but most combats will see an opponent stunned into submission and knocked out long before they are actually killed or maimed.

If every hit stuns (light armor negates stuns for slashing, medium for slashing & piercing, heavy for slash/pierce/blunt excepting some weapons or expenditure of cp or fate) and one can only take as many stuns as they have physique attribute dice (i allow stuns to be ignored if source is at least a scale modifer below your scale) then its a lot more bushido duel than hp grind.

In the game I'm writing right now, I kind of turned the death spiral idea around.  I suppose you could call it a "life spiral."  It's embodied in a mechanic called "momentum."  If a character makes a successful melee attack, they add one to their momentum.  Momentum is added to all melee attack and all defense rolls.  If the character takes damage or fails to make a successful melee attack in a round, their momentum is reset to zero.  The injury system is hp-ish.

There are several things I like about this mechanic

1)  Momentum is a real thing in fights and I wanted to model it.  I feel it adds tension and drama.

2)  It adds tactical depth.  Building an advantage can be more important than doing as much damage as you can right now.  You have to make a choice.

3)  It's a bonus rather than a hindrance to the player tracking it.  Bonuses are always more fun.

4)  There's a catchup mechanism.  If your opponent has momentum, try to get out of his reach for a round to recover, or go for a "light attack," which does minimal damage but has a higher chance of doing some damage and breaking momentum.

Quote from: Mishihari;1143977In the game I'm writing right now, I kind of turned the death spiral idea around.  I suppose you could call it a "life spiral."  It's embodied in a mechanic called "momentum."  If a character makes a successful melee attack, they add one to their momentum.  Momentum is added to all melee attack and all defense rolls.  If the character takes damage or fails to make a successful melee attack in a round, their momentum is reset to zero.  The injury system is hp-ish.

There are several things I like about this mechanic

1)  Momentum is a real thing in fights and I wanted to model it.  I feel it adds tension and drama.

2)  It adds tactical depth.  Building an advantage can be more important than doing as much damage as you can right now.  You have to make a choice.

3)  It's a bonus rather than a hindrance to the player tracking it.  Bonuses are always more fun.

4)  There's a catchup mechanism.  If your opponent has momentum, try to get out of his reach for a round to recover, or go for a "light attack," which does minimal damage but has a higher chance of doing some damage and breaking momentum.

i like this concept.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1144003i like this concept.

Seconded.

Quote from: Mishihari;1143977In the game I'm writing right now, I kind of turned the death spiral idea around.  I suppose you could call it a "life spiral."  It's embodied in a mechanic called "momentum."

I came up with an idea very similar as a house rule for Exalted, creating a trait for combatants called Fury; this was a running score that started at zero for a combatant and got bumped up by various events, including taking damage and spending Essence, up to a maximum of 5. The importance of reaching a high Fury was that you could only bust out Charms or Combos of a certain power level once your Fury got high enough to allow them; the downside was that your anima also manifested at the appropriate level of active Fury, so if you wanted to stay under the Dragon-Blooded's radar you were profoundly limited in your choice of tactics or environments.

The impetus was to create a game-mechanical reason for the combat pattern most animes seem to run by, which is that nobody ever seems to start with their most powerful or effective attack and everybody seems to need to get beaten up a fair bit before really cutting loose, which is rarely how players actually fight.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144576I came up with an idea very similar as a house rule for Exalted, creating a trait for combatants called Fury; this was a running score that started at zero for a combatant and got bumped up by various events, including taking damage and spending Essence, up to a maximum of 5. The importance of reaching a high Fury was that you could only bust out Charms or Combos of a certain power level once your Fury got high enough to allow them; the downside was that your anima also manifested at the appropriate level of active Fury, so if you wanted to stay under the Dragon-Blooded's radar you were profoundly limited in your choice of tactics or environments.

The impetus was to create a game-mechanical reason for the combat pattern most animes seem to run by, which is that nobody ever seems to start with their most powerful or effective attack and everybody seems to need to get beaten up a fair bit before really cutting loose, which is rarely how players actually fight.

Using that system to try to emulate fiction is really clever.  How did it work out in practice?  Were there any unforeseen problems?  I'm still fleshing out my system and knowing what worked and what didn't for yours would help a lot.

Quote from: Mishihari;1144579Using that system to try to emulate fiction is really clever.  How did it work out in practice?  Were there any unforeseen problems?

Sadly, there's a reason I called it an idea rather than an actually developed rule; I never playtested it.  In fact I've done tragically little actual gaming for years. So I can't help you out much on that front.