Quick search on Amazon shows the publication date as Aug 1, 2019. I played it once and I can't recall a damn thing about it, except 3 actions per round (?) How are things going?
They just released the Advanced Players Guide for Gen Con.
There is also a Humble Bundle (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-second-edition-paizo-inc-books?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_2) with most of the 2e stuff up at the moment (for another 2 days).
How ever they are releasing a Pro-Police Adventure path into the teeth of full woke cancel culture though so the future looks grim and perilous.
Quote from: Shasarak;1142871How ever they are releasing a Pro-Police Adventure path into the teeth of full woke cancel culture though so the future looks grim and perilous.
Their apology for doing so was so pathetic imo. It was like watching a mobster movie where the low level flunky has to beg for his life from the Godfather for having done nothing wrong.
Other than needing release something new just to have something new, why was PF2E necessary? I tend to like the first edition, I don't really see any big issues with it personally.
Quote from: Cigalazade;1142885Other than needing release something new just to have something new, why was PF2E necessary? I tend to like the first edition, I don't really see any big issues with it personally.
Nothing wrong with playing 1st edition. Paizo is still selling the books if you need some more.
Quote from: Shasarak;1142889Nothing wrong with playing 1st edition. Paizo is still selling the books if you need some more.
I see they still have what seems like a glut (?) of first edition books...
Quote from: Cigalazade;1142890I see they still have what seems like a glut (?) of first edition books...
I guess if you print 1e books for 10 years then you probably accumulate some stock (?) in your warehouse.
In any case they said that they will still sell books as long as there are people buying them.
There's a decent thread on ENworld: "Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank" Where a guy tracked PF2 sales vs. what PF1 did vs. 5e before PF2 was announced.
I don't think anyone at Baizuo was so much as dreaming of even getting close to 5e, the way that they did with 4e.
But I do think that it is reasonable to assume they were hoping to reverse the steady decline that PF1 was having by revitalizing their fanbase with an exiting new edition.
Pulling PF1 groups back into the fold who had left for 5e or other games. And giving them a healthy bump for an overall different sales trajectory.
Given the data that we have; I think that it is a reasonable educated guess to say that PF2 failed to do that.
Anecdotally - PF1 still has a bigger presence on virtual table top online platforms than PF2. And Paizo currently employs it's largest staff ever...
What exactly all that will mean for Baizuo in the long run? ... Who the fuck knows.
That being said:
IMHO, even if PF2 did not live up to Baizuo's goals and expectations, they still greatly benefit from the fact that All their nearest would-be competitors games Fucking Suck.
Shadowrun 6e Fucking Sucks. The new edition of Champions Fucking Sucks. And no one seems capable of making a Marvel or DC licensed game that does not Fucking Suck. Vampire 5e Fucking Sucks. RuneQuest has a decent system, but Gorlantha always and forever Fucking Sucks. CoC 7th - same as CoC 6th with more woke = Fucking Sucks. And nobody plays Traveller anymore. (It always Fucking Sucked...)
Hot evergreen RPG properties like Conan, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings, are all tied to game systems that Fucking Suck.
(Except for AiME - because people love their 5e compatibility...)
There is Savage Worlds. But it Fucking Sucks.
Steve Jackson Games? Dungeon Fantasy and TFT releases would have gone over like gangbusters... In 1989. Done for the old fans, not getting any new fans = Fucking Sucks.
Without exception* every single viable RPG property from the 80's to mid 90's that could contend for the #2 spot behind D&D have all been mis-managed straight into utter and complete Mega Fucking Sucktitude.
And no OSR game has achieved sufficient popularity to rise above the noise to even break into Baizuo's peripheral vision...
Honestly, given their solid market position as a perennial #2 since 4e came out; it seems that Baizuo will have to hit a few more own goals before another competitor even has a chance to get in the game.
*(Unless you live in Japan, which means that if you are not playing either Call of Culthulu or Sword World; your favorite game Fucking Sucks.)
I'd buy Jaeger a nice apple cider to go with all that 'hop'ping bitterness. :D The rant was delicious and needs refreshment to catch its breath and get its second wind. Go on, tell us more about Paizo!
Quote from: Opaopajr;1142899I'd buy Jaeger a nice apple cider to go with all that 'hop'ping bitterness. :D The rant was delicious and needs refreshment to catch its breath and get its second wind. Go on, tell us more about Paizo!
I never let my emotions cloud my judgement when I am speaking Truth to Power.
Because Truth is Truth.
Savage Worlds
really Fucking Sucks.
Blimey, imagine what would happen if Jaeger told us how he really felt about some of those games! :-)
I've played Starfinder, but not PF2. Starfinder was ok, nothing great, but ok. No one I know is playing or running PF2. And that's about 5 or 6 GMs and their groups.
Quote from: Shasarak;1142891I guess if you print 1e books for 10 years then you probably accumulate some stock (?) in your warehouse.
In any case they said that they will still sell books as long as there are people buying them.
Paizo promised to continue printing the Core books for 1E in softcover format, as long as the demand is there. Probably the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Advanced Player's Guide, and Gamemastery Guide.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1142899I'd buy Jaeger a nice apple cider to go with all that 'hop'ping bitterness. :D The rant was delicious and needs refreshment to catch its breath and get its second wind. Go on, tell us more about Paizo!
Yeah, bravo! Bravo! :D
Dear Sir and/or Madam,
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter
Quote from: spon;1142910Blimey, imagine what would happen if Jaeger told us how he really felt about some of those games! :-)
I've played Starfinder, but not PF2. Starfinder was ok, nothing great, but ok. No one I know is playing or running PF2. And that's about 5 or 6 GMs and their groups.
Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.
I don't think Paizo spent much time playtesting either the core game, or the Dead Suns adventure path, because my group managed to derail things a couple times by doing something which seemed logical.
I politely disagree with Savage Worlds sucking, but it DOES take a little getting used to and the probability matrix goes right out the window because while it's easier to hit a TN with a larger dice, it's harder to ace (roll max, which lets you roll again while keeping the maxed roll).
Then again, I am playing Rifts with SW, so I guess SW looks good compared to Palladium... :D
Their lets say, philosophy turned me right off from the get go.
Since many of us lets say, dislike the phrasing of the WOTC disclaimers added to legacy product, I'll share the 'Gaming is for All' bit from the Pathfinder 2e:
Here are some excerpts from the "Gaming is For All" section on pages 5-6 of the Playtest Rulebook:
Whether you're a player or a Game Master, participating in a tabletop roleplaying game involves an inherent social contract: everyone has gathered to have fun together, and the table is a safe space for everyone.
Everyone has a right to play and enjoy Pathfinder regardless of their age, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or any other identities and life experiences. Pathfinder is for everyone, and Pathfinder games should be as safe, inclusive, and fun as possible for all.
As a player, it is your responsibility to ensure that you are not creating or contributing to an environment that makes any other players feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, particularly if those players are members of minority or marginalized communities that haven't always been welcome or represented in the larger gaming population.
Thus, it's important to consider your character concepts and roleplaying style and avoid any approach that could cause harm to another player.
A character whose concept and mannerisms are racist tropes, for example, is exceptionally harmful and works against the goal of providing fun for all.
A roleplaying style in which a player or character is constantly interrupting others or treating certain players or characters with condescension is similarly unacceptable.
Furthermore, standards of respect don't vanish simply because you're playing a character in a fantasy game. For example, it's never acceptable to refer to another person using an offensive term or a slur, and doing so "in character" is just as bad as doing so directly.
If your character's concept requires you act this way, that's a good sign your concept is harmful, and you have a responsibility to change it.
Sometimes, you might not realize that your character concept or roleplaying style is making others feel unwelcome at the gaming table. If another player tells you that your character concept or roleplaying style makes them uncomfortable, you shouldn't argue about what they should or shouldn't find offensive or say that what you're doing is common (and therefore okay) among players or in other media.
People of all identities and experiences have a right to be represented in the game, even if they're not necessarily playing at your table.
I'm not even going to address it point-by-point, but let me comment on the unbridled ARROGANCE of that last statement: Motherfucker - just playing at my table is a PRIVILEGE, and being a GODDAMN IMAGINARY CHARACTER IN MY HEADSPACE DOES NOT COME WITH A BILL OF RIGHTS. I'm not going down the 'diversity checklist' if I decide to make an ice-age iron-age Frazzeta and Vallejo looking bloodfest I'm not going to stop and go; Hmm... where do I put the trannies?
Fuck them, fuck their game, and fuck these dangerhair clowns that wrote that bullshit.
Here's my RPG disclaimer - "Don't be a dick or people won't let you play." Print that on the bottom of every page if you want.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.
I don't think Paizo spent much time playtesting either the core game, or the Dead Suns adventure path, because my group managed to derail things a couple times by doing something which seemed logical.
I politely disagree with Savage Worlds sucking, but it DOES take a little getting used to and the probability matrix goes right out the window because while it's easier to hit a TN with a larger dice, it's harder to ace (roll max, which lets you roll again while keeping the maxed roll).
Then again, I am playing Rifts with SW, so I guess SW looks good compared to Palladium... :D
I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.
Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...
Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.
Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."
I disagree about Savage worlds as well. It's not perfect yet less crunchy and complex than Hero Games or Gurps. Unfortunately both companies owners decided to just focus on the hardcore fanbase and no one else. While being unable to really do anything new because the fanbase insists on no changes. Even then i could understand Hero gaes as they were on life support many years ago. SJGames is weird fans wanted Gurps Vehicles they decided the fanbase really wanted Mars Attacks and Discworld for 4E. Neither book sold well enough.
Funny enough my PF 2E core arrived in the mail today. At least three moths late it arrived. I wonder if these Woke publishers realize how dangerous it is to tell DMs and players to be armchair psychologists at their tables. That should be left to the professionals. In any case this is the same company that thought it was a good idea to apologize for including police in their latest AP. Players playing amoral pirates in another is ok even when the players guide tells a player not to play a Paladin. Or another AP where players are to be as evil as can be. Cops it's the ultimate evil man.
Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.
Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...
Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.
Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."
That's fucking hilarious, and par for the course with the system. It doesn't hurt that you get to roll a wild die separately (a d6), so you have two chances to make the die explode.
Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...
Why not just go play that?
As for trying to grow your fanbase these days? Let's be real... the core people that play these days are ideologically indoctrinated before they get into the hobby *most likely* - or not. And the current medium for the game is jam-packed with virtue-signalling folks that want to cater to the newly baptized.
Those that aren't - whether they be game designers, or simply new to the hobby (or veterans) are walking a social-minefield just trying to create groups from scratch. I live in TX and even here, ferreting out normal people that just want to play without the Soy politics is getting tricky.
But I'm going to stay the course. You play what I'm willing to run - or GTFO.
As for PF2- what are they offering that isn't already available in other forms? I jettisoned interest in their design a while back... but the SJW stuff they injected into their game pretty much put the kibosh on everything for me.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.
I was just talking to my brother about the system. There's so much that shouldn't work, but we're having a lot of fun with it. (Had a lot of fun before the lockdowns. Gaming has become very sporadic for us.)
QuoteI don't think Paizo spent much time playtesting either the core game, or the Dead Suns adventure path, because my group managed to derail things a couple times by doing something which seemed logical.
I don't put much stock in their adventure paths. I've got the first 3 Dead Suns books from when I was first getting into the game, but never played them.
Quote from: tenbones;1142963Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...
Why not just go play that?
As for trying to grow your fanbase these days? Let's be real... the core people that play these days are ideologically indoctrinated before they get into the hobby *most likely* - or not. And the current medium for the game is jam-packed with virtue-signalling folks that want to cater to the newly baptized.
Those that aren't - whether they be game designers, or simply new to the hobby (or veterans) are walking a social-minefield just trying to create groups from scratch. I live in TX and even here, ferreting out normal people that just want to play without the Soy politics is getting tricky.
But I'm going to stay the course. You play what I'm willing to run - or GTFO.
As for PF2- what are they offering that isn't already available in other forms? I jettisoned interest in their design a while back... but the SJW stuff they injected into their game pretty much put the kibosh on everything for me.
Unlike ethics and morality, 'suck' is relative when dealing with systems. A good game with good friends will invariably balance out a clunky system.
And settings? Sure, they can frontload their settings with stuff that wouldn't even make it into the Blue Rose canon. Won't stop me from jettisoning it to the curb. :)
Quote from: Jaeger;1142896There's a decent thread on ENworld: "Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank" Where a guy tracked PF2 sales vs. what PF1 did vs. 5e before PF2 was announced.
I don't think anyone at Baizuo was so much as dreaming of even getting close to 5e, the way that they did with 4e.
But I do think that it is reasonable to assume they were hoping to reverse the steady decline that PF1 was having by revitalizing their fanbase with an exiting new edition.
Pulling PF1 groups back into the fold who had left for 5e or other games. And giving them a healthy bump for an overall different sales trajectory.
Given the data that we have; I think that it is a reasonable educated guess to say that PF2 failed to do that.
Anecdotally - PF1 still has a bigger presence on virtual table top online platforms than PF2. And Paizo currently employs it's largest staff ever...
What exactly all that will mean for Baizuo in the long run? ... Who the fuck knows.
That being said:
IMHO, even if PF2 did not live up to Baizuo's goals and expectations, they still greatly benefit from the fact that All their nearest would-be competitors games Fucking Suck.
Shadowrun 6e Fucking Sucks. The new edition of Champions Fucking Sucks. And no one seems capable of making a Marvel or DC licensed game that does not Fucking Suck. Vampire 5e Fucking Sucks. RuneQuest has a decent system, but Gorlantha always and forever Fucking Sucks. CoC 7th - same as CoC 6th with more woke = Fucking Sucks. And nobody plays Traveller anymore. (It always Fucking Sucked...)
Hot evergreen RPG properties like Conan, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings, are all tied to game systems that Fucking Suck.
(Except for AiME - because people love their 5e compatibility...)
There is Savage Worlds. But it Fucking Sucks.
Steve Jackson Games? Dungeon Fantasy and TFT releases would have gone over like gangbusters... In 1989. Done for the old fans, not getting any new fans = Fucking Sucks.
Without exception* every single viable RPG property from the 80's to mid 90's that could contend for the #2 spot behind D&D have all been mis-managed straight into utter and complete Mega Fucking Sucktitude.
And no OSR game has achieved sufficient popularity to rise above the noise to even break into Baizuo's peripheral vision...
Honestly, given their solid market position as a perennial #2 since 4e came out; it seems that Baizuo will have to hit a few more own goals before another competitor even has a chance to get in the game.
*(Unless you live in Japan, which means that if you are not playing either Call of Culthulu or Sword World; your favorite game Fucking Sucks.)
(https://i.gifer.com/82Cu.gif)
PF2 is seeing a good amount of play in my little circle. I don't have any "official" information, but all of the books being on the Humble Bundle for pennies on the dollar is not a good sign. Its got to be a disappointment for them.
And thats kind of a shame because the strengths of the system very much favor battlemats or VTT, and theres a lot more VTT going on now for obvious reasons.
Personally, I do like the system but other than the new Bestiary the rulebooks they've released since have been mostly a waste. I'm really not a fan of the adventure paths and wouldn't have bought the new law enforcement one really no matter what was in it. I don't see how these multi part, second rate novella type adventures are very competitive with what else is out there.
I've run both games for decent sized campaigns, and see Starfinder as something of a stepping stone into what they came up with for PF2. Similar, sharply scaling system with an emphasis on combat classes vs support classes rather than characters that can do everything if properly munchkinized, with movement/tactics playing a big role. The problem with that is that neither book comes right out and says that, and players assume that they are like previous systems. So they give their Wizard a sword or GPMG and end up not being able to do much with it. "I can't hit anything" is the most common complaint I see.
They did heavily tone down the "Gaming is for All" section of the rulebook into something that is to me pretty reasonable. Other than the first line about a social contract, none of the rest made it into the book. Not that it will change anyone's mind.
Quote from: Jaeger;1142896RuneQuest has a decent system, but Gorlantha always and forever Fucking Sucks.
There are Mythras and other BRP variants out there that take the mechanics and don't use Glorantha. Why do they "F---ing S---!"? ;)
Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.
Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...
Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.
Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."
I'm in a Slipstream campaign right now, and running a Deadlands campaign. I think what you described is Savage World's greatest asset, and its greatest detriment. A good RPG needs that occasional "against-the-odds" success to make the session memorable. The "I needed a nat 20..." story gets told over and over, but the "I had a 90% chance to succeed... and I succeeded" stories don't. So the exploding dice is something that works well for that.
The problem is that the way the game functions, combat becomes more and more dependent on acing. Unless you run 2 - 3x the party size in mooks (which will burn bennies quickly just based on the mooks acing), most of the enemies will have a toughness so high that you have to wait for the damage die to explode to even have a chance to hurt them. So, instead of D&D where you slowly whittle hp until the monster finally drops, you hit the monster over and over and do nothing, until the dice explode and the monster drops. So the process is different, but the feeling ends up the same. A wasted opportunity, IMHO...
Quote from: Aglondir;1142868Quick search on Amazon shows the publication date as Aug 1, 2019. I played it once and I can't recall a damn thing about it, except 3 actions per round (?) How are things going?
I used to play in Pathfinder Society games weekly, but stopped a few years back. Still know most of the guys who did (at max, we had a rolling group at 20-30 people at a local game store. Of them, only a handful are playing PF2. Most are still playing PF1, or have dropped out totally. So, anecdotally, I haven't seen anything that would suggest Paizo hit a home run, or even a double...
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.
Parts of it are interesting, but you really need to have different core mechanics in a system designed around ranged combat relative to one centered around melee. I've only played a couple sessions of Starfinder, but it just felt way too easy to close to melee. It seems like in a sci-fi game, unless you have a really good in-setting excuse like Jedi, that melee should be a risky venture, though potentially high risk/reward.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922...
I politely disagree with Savage Worlds sucking, ...
Then again, I am playing Rifts with SW, so I guess SW looks good compared to Palladium... :D
Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts....
It is never too late to stop smoking crack.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142968Unlike ethics and morality, 'suck' is relative when dealing with systems.
You publicly admit to using Savage Worlds to Play Rifts. 5 out of 10 gamers agree that you have no moral compass.
Quote from: tenbones;1142963Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...
Why not just go play that?
I have gotten to the point that no system I run survives without some form of modification.
My Star Wars game is pure a dicepool homebrew system. And the game I started using Honor+Intrigue is also heavily modded.
I can change mechanics to the way I think things should be, and my changes work in actual play at the table. So I do.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142968A good game with good friends will invariably balance out a clunky system.
Truth is Truth though.
Currently playing in a 5e game. One of the group wanted to Gm. It works because our group makes it work. I'll just say that the system could have been made smoother and leave it at that lest I be accused of D&D bashing.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143021There are Mythras and other BRP variants out there that take the mechanics and don't use Glorantha. Why do they "F---ing S---!"? ;)
This is easy.
The damage was already done by Chaosium's stubborn insistence over 3 decades that Gorlantha is actually a good setting. And not one of the variants has a setting that engages people to give their system a try. This is of course much easier said than done.
Also, the Mythras designers need to answer their damn phones. Because 1994 called it wants its absurd crunch levels back. So it Fucking Sucks.
FYI, If any of you out there are still at a loss wondering why your favorite system Fucking Sucks? Do not despair!
Uncle Jaeger is here all week to answer your pleas for help, and drop wisdom speaking real truth to power on why the Made of Fail RPG you are currently running Fucking Sucks.
I guess I have a crack habit then because I also like Savage Rifts. I find the Palladium system clunky and annoying as hell though the earlier books are a good read.
Mediocre to sub-par. Neat engine, sucky execution. And I am the mechanically minded demographic. This is too little too late and still reeks of insular design. Its more Pathfinder for people that liked vanilla pathfinder. For people that wanted more, or only used Pathfinder as a launching point its sub-par and mediocre. Which doesn't cut it as a transitional engine.
Edit: While Only OSR or really retro stuff gets respect around these parts, D&D 3e is 20 years old. 20 Years old and receiving some form of support or another. Its had decades to iron out kinks, have houserules made, rules modified and customized. 3rd party, 1st party, 2nd party.
It has plenty of detractors (for good reason), but those that like it are going to be hard pressed to move on (from their piles and piles of existing materials) unless that new stuff is top notch.
Quote from: Jaeger;1143085Currently playing in a 5e game. One of the group wanted to Gm. It works because our group makes it work. I'll just say that the system could have been made smoother and leave it at that lest I be accused of D&D bashing.
Bash away! We need a "5E fucking sucks" thread.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143107Mediocre to sub-par. Neat engine, sucky execution. And I am the mechanically minded demographic. This is too little too late and still reeks of insular design. Its more Pathfinder for people that liked vanilla pathfinder. For people that wanted more, or only used Pathfinder as a launching point its sub-par and mediocre. Which doesn't cut it as a transitional engine.
Edit: While Only OSR or really retro stuff gets respect around these parts, D&D 3e is 20 years old. 20 Years old and receiving some form of support or another. Its had decades to iron out kinks, have houserules made, rules modified and customized. 3rd party, 1st party, 2nd party.
It has plenty of detractors (for good reason), but those that like it are going to be hard pressed to move on (from their piles and piles of existing materials) unless that new stuff is top notch.
Has it been that long? It's time for a 3rd Era Renaissance (or whatever the "R" in OSR stands for.)
3ER!
Quote from: Aglondir;1143110Bash away! We need a "5E fucking sucks" thread.
My issue with 5e is that I find it the least ambitious of them all. It makes most happy by being a tepid 'in-between' but by not doing anything uniquely.....TOO bad, it also doesn't do anything super good, and especially anything uniquely good.
Quote from: Shasarak;1142871How ever they are releasing a Pro-Police Adventure path into the teeth of full woke cancel culture though so the future looks grim and perilous.
Wait... are you saying the future looks like
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4742[/ATTACH]
:eek:
Quote from: Aglondir;1143113Wait... are you saying the future looks like
Yes but with less white people and more black trans non binaries, you biggot.
Quote from: Aglondir;1143111Has it been that long? It's time for a 3rd Era Renaissance (or whatever the "R" in OSR stands for.)
3ER!
3ER FTW!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143112My issue with 5e is that I find it the least ambitious of them all. It makes most happy by being a tepid 'in-between' but by not doing anything uniquely.....TOO bad, it also doesn't do anything super good, and especially anything uniquely good.
Yup, it's a game made for this era: Built to offend NOBODY, and bland, like a pack of expired saltines.
Probably why it's become so popular.
Quote from: LiferGamer;1142925members of minority or marginalized communities that haven't always been welcome
That is a racist lie. Not a dime from me until they apologize for it.
Quote from: Jaeger;1143085Uncle Jaeger is here all week to answer your pleas for help, and drop wisdom speaking real truth to power on why the Made of Fail RPG you are currently running Fucking Sucks.
Is there a rpg other than d20 that didn't suck and not a homebrew?
Quote from: VisionStorm;1143121Yup, it's a game made for this era: Built to offend NOBODY, and bland, like a pack of expired saltines.
Probably why it's become so popular.
Id play 5e over 4e, but I respect 4e more. In its own twisted way, it was trying to address complaints about 3e and focus the game on what it thought people wanted. It's the Dietakana of D&D.
"D&D 4e is about to make you his bitch!" said the brazen commercials literally shitting on people they disagreed with. "You want to play gnomes? THEY SUCK! TIEFLINGS RULE GNOMES DROOL!"
It's also popular because of timing. With Stranger things and the brief popularity of online tabletop game streams (where the polls say people just wanna hear a story and if the rolls go a bad way to disregard them). I don't see 5e being this popular in 2005, even with D&D branding.
Quote from: VisionStorm;11431213ER FTW!
Yup, it's a game made for this era: Built to offend NOBODY, and bland, like a pack of expired saltines.
:p
Boy, given some threads on some boards (on both sides of the fence), I'm not sure you can really say that.......
I was considering the Bundle, but the artwork in the corebook is... ridiculous. Distracting. Childish. There might be a good game in there, but wow that's awful. No thanks.
Savage Worlds is okay, aside from the latest edition not innovating anything from prior editions. I feel like the Savage Worlds ecosystem has gone really stale. They basically just kickstart 'reloaded' versions of popular prior settings these days. I guess that can toss it into the "fucking sucks" zone. Has there even been any interesting third party settings for the system in the last couple years? Cypher has been getting some interesting material, but it's a love it or hate it system with weird settings. It's getting a couple nice stock fantasy settings soon. Licensed RPGs are essentially dead now. FFG Star Wars was selling okay by all accounts, but who knows if that'll be around next year with FFG laying off their RPG division.
So yeah, it's not like PF2 has had much competition and 5e seems to be sucking the air out of the 'watered down version of the D&D your dad played' room.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143107Mediocre to sub-par. Neat engine, sucky execution. And I am the mechanically minded demographic. This is too little too late and still reeks of insular design. Its more Pathfinder for people that liked vanilla pathfinder. For people that wanted more, or only used Pathfinder as a launching point its sub-par and mediocre. Which doesn't cut it as a transitional engine.
I would disagree. My campaign has been going for about a year now and I have been surprised at the depth of the game even, as you say, with the vanilla rules presented in the core rule book. My Party is at 10th level and the game is hanging together nicely.
Quote from: Shasarak;1143146I would disagree. My campaign has been going for about a year now and I have been surprised at the depth of the game even, as you say, with the vanilla rules presented in the core rule book. My Party is at 10th level and the game is hanging together nicely.
I've converted my PF1 group over to PF2 (we were playing AD&D 2ed before that) and we are having a blast. I started them off as kids doing fun stuff around the village and now they are grown up and are rooting out a cult that is trying to take over the area. I will never use their settings or adventures. Just the rule books and bestiary's for me ;)
Quote from: Shasarak;1143146I would disagree. My campaign has been going for about a year now and I have been surprised at the depth of the game even, as you say, with the vanilla rules presented in the core rule book. My Party is at 10th level and the game is hanging together nicely.
Aight. Enjoy. I personally find it a massive downgrade to what I wanted out of PF. I didn't say the rules where shallow. I said they reaked of Paizos insular design and I stand by it. I don't believe liking or disliking it is objective.
To me it still has so much of 3es and PFs fiddliness with tiny numbers. Its given more choices, but more choices of tiny number gains, or complex comboes. And magic has the neatest stuff and the most neat choices out of combat (and in combat) even nerfed.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143150Aight. Enjoy. I personally find it a massive downgrade to what I wanted out of PF. I didn't say the rules where shallow. I said they reaked of Paizos insular design and I stand by it. I don't believe liking or disliking it is objective.
To me it still has so much of 3es and PFs fiddliness with tiny numbers. Its given more choices, but more choices of tiny number gains, or complex comboes. And magic has the neatest stuff and the most neat choices out of combat (and in combat) even nerfed.
Magic having the neatest stuff is 50 years of DnD.
Quote from: Aglondir;1143110Bash away! We need a "5E fucking sucks" thread.
We've had several.
Games can suck for different reasons. Any given group of players can overcome some aspects of the suck better than other aspects. For example, 5E is bland, but it doesn't get in my way of running a game I like with players that want to do what I'm doing. My 5E game is not bland, because it just needs the mechanics to not get in the way. I could run a very similar game in, say, BEMCI/RC, and it would also work. Whereas the suck in 3*/PF does get in my way for that game. Or more to the point, Fantasy Hero or GURPS would also get in my way for this game (though unlike the 3*/PF stuff, would not suck for another game I might run). If I were running a different game, that might flip, but right now I'm not.
Oh, and Toon is the only game that doesn't suck. It's just too narrow in scope to replace all the games that do. :D
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143181Games can suck for different reasons. Any given group of players can overcome some aspects of the suck better than other aspects. For example, 5E is bland, but it doesn't get in my way of running a game I like with players that want to do what I'm doing. My 5E game is not bland, because it just needs the mechanics to not get in the way. I could run a very similar game in, say, BEMCI/RC, and it would also work. Whereas the suck in 3*/PF does get in my way for that game. Or more to the point, Fantasy Hero or GURPS would also get in my way for this game (though unlike the 3*/PF stuff, would not suck for another game I might run). If I were running a different game, that might flip, but right now I'm not.
Oh, and Toon is the only game that doesn't suck. It's just too narrow in scope to replace all the games that do. :D
I will agree that one place 5e improves on 4th and 3rd was that it does get out of your way when you want it to. "Rulings not rules" is a much more traditional view of RPGs (even if 5e gives more lip-service to this than it does execution) and does help make 5e more flexible and tolerable. But, without the right players and DM, it can get very bland very fast. It doesn't help that the stock monsters are primarily different sized bags of hp, without a lot to differentiate them.
My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.
Id take 1e, 2e, or OSR stuff thats good at being out of your way with a focus on rulings. 5e is like a pair of glasses at an art museum. Because its so nothing people attribute that nothing intent.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143198My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.
Id take 1e, 2e, or OSR stuff thats good at being out of your way with a focus on rulings. 5e is like a pair of glasses at an art museum. Because its so nothing people attribute that nothing intent.
If all it does is get out of your way, I agree with that. For me, 5E does a few things well. It just happens that I mostly value what it does well and don't much value a lot that it leaves out.
BEMCI/RC also mostly works for me in this way, except that some of the wonkiness of race as class and other edge cases make it more difficult for me to accommodate certain play styles that I usually want to so accommodate. I can do it, but it is a little extra work. Once I've done that work, in some ways it works better than 5E for me, in others still not as much.
It also doesn't help in my case that most of the "not bland" options in OSR are not to my taste stylistically. It's easier to bring my own style to something bland than excise a strong style from something else. YMMV.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143209If all it does is get out of your way, I agree with that. For me, 5E does a few things well. It just happens that I mostly value what it does well and don't much value a lot that it leaves out.
Huh. What do you find it does well?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143212Huh. What do you find it does well?
If we want to get into that discussion, I'd rather do it in a separate topic. My example here is really about why PF isn't for me, which is at least tangentially on topic.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143219If we want to get into that discussion, I'd rather do it in a separate topic. My example here is really about why PF isn't for me, which is at least tangentially on topic.
Could you make a topic for it? I see so much support for 5e on the premise its not Pathfinder, and not on any premises unique to itself.
Edit: Also telling how a discussion of PF 2e became a discussion of D&D 5e.
Am I reading that Humble Bundle right that you can get a hardcopy of the core rules AND just about everything they've made for PF2 in PDF format for $30?
Quote from: Mistwell;1143255Am I reading that Humble Bundle right that you can get a hardcopy of the core rules AND just about everything they've made for PF2 in PDF format for $30?
I think you are. I didnt even like 1e but i was temoted for a moment due to such a great price.
Quote from: Slambo;1143261I think you are. I didnt even like 1e but i was temoted for a moment due to such a great price.
I sold all my PF stuff because I never once played it, got the 2nd edition PDF and decided, "Nope, not for me." But now I am compelled to pay $30 because I'd get a gigantic, shiny new book that I know I will never use. Resisting...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143221Could you make a topic for it? I see so much support for 5e on the premise its not Pathfinder, and not on any premises unique to itself.
Edit: Also telling how a discussion of PF 2e became a discussion of D&D 5e.
When you talk about boring games it is just natural for discussion to flow in that direction.
Quote from: Brad;1143265I sold all my PF stuff because I never once played it, got the 2nd edition PDF and decided, "Nope, not for me." But now I am compelled to pay $30 because I'd get a gigantic, shiny new book that I know I will never use. Resisting...
$30 for a shiny new book which has an Amazon price of $39. Seriously considering taking the plunge for the adventures, and selling the shiny thing on Ebay for $30.
Either PF2 is selling well and they want to give the fans a new gift as well as regain some of their lost public relations with the fans and the whole police AP debacle. Or they misjudged how much the fans really disliked PF 1E or even worse don't understand D&D gamers. Many of them including myself like to complain and moan about rules issues, yet unlike them I want to actually see the flaws fixed. Many of them want to complain for example about Linear Fight quadratic Wizard except Paizo or Wotc better not touch their godly wizards. Fighters can;t have nice things like the book of 9 Swords because "anime" and "broken" except nothing wrong with high level casters at all in the game.
PF needed something new as it was mostly a rehash of 3.5. I like the changes Paizo did with PF 1E they left overall flaws of the 3.5 mostly intact. If I choose to play a melee class unless I want a challenge and too lazy I take a Fighter. They get more feats ( like no one else gets them ). Boring class abilites +4 Bravery at high level cause that is going to get me through Saving Throw college. Cavalier is my go to Fighter class and imo what the class should have been. Even if high level casters still overshadow them they get better class abilities.
All rpg gamers like to complain about the rules most of them imo want them fixed. D&D players or at least Pathfinder players like to do the same but you better never ever change anything.
Hi all I was poking my nose in on phone here's my 2 ¢.
The way I see pf2 is a messed up strange 3.5 on crack not fun on crack bad on crack.
At the end of the day it dose 99 things I wanted from a ttrpg but then fuck it up in the strangest little ways.
A good example look at the item weight rules its an x number of items system that means you cant carry squat but then look at the way equipment is listed and much like dnd there's this casual asumption that the party is carrying niche use equipment.
Now I did the math and there's simply not enough room in that system to carry your equipment and have your normal kit and standard safety items a potion of two a cleric on a stick 50 ft of chain 10 ft pole fire flask or two nothing extravagant just normal stuff.
Then this is compounded by the fact difrent weapons are definatly intended for diferent types of encounters and situations.
Now can this be fixed by importing rules from pf1e yes but then theres tons of other little things that each need there own little fix.
If I give them the benefit of the doubt its because they never truly played that way and simply neglected to update the rules in testing if I dont they never played it at all and did it all base on how they thought it worked in theory.
Now if thats the case they forgot a simple but important lession. The difference between theory and practice is bigger in practice then in theory.
All this leads to my final summation of the system being its not worth the effort.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1143353All this leads to my final summation of the system being its not worth the effort.
That was certainly my feeling after playing a few sessions. The GM seemed to enjoy herself though. :)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143132Id play 5e over 4e, but I respect 4e more. In its own twisted way, it was trying to address complaints about 3e and focus the game on what it thought people wanted.
...
This, 5e is design by commite and it shows.
But it is also the reason WOTC stumbled over its own dick with 4e and made a massive hit.
Its very blandness allows most people to squint and see what they want to see in the game. Which lead to its widespread adoption by gamers post 4e.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143198My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.
.
5e crunch is what I like to call "Book-Keeping Crunch". After the first few levels You constantly have to track this or that ability, spell, etc...
For me it is neither hot nor cold, so I spit it out.
And while I loath the 'Getting out of your way' rules set/playstyle - It is exactly what allows GM's to play fast and loose with the rules so that their popular streaming shows seem so effortless and everyone can all talk about what a wonderful session of D&D it was.
Lots of groups like it because it does nothing to inhibit their preferred playstyle. Even though their preferred playstyle would probably be easier to engage in with a more focused game system .
But 5e has the D&D logo on the cover, and the power of 'good enough' is never to be underestimated for the RPG market leader...
Quote from: kosmos1214;1143353...
At the end of the day it dose 99 things I wanted from a ttrpg but then fuck it up in the strangest little ways.
If I give them the benefit of the doubt its because they never truly played that way and simply neglected to update the rules in testing if I dont they never played it at all and did it all base on how they thought it worked in theory. ...
This is more or less my view of PF2 after looking at the rules. They have a few good ideas, and a few things that are done better than 5e. But ultimately it is a game catering to the hardcore 3e players who still want MOAAR! +1+2 crunch and munch.
Fuck that!
Which is of course why Pathfinder 2e Fucking Sucks.
Quote from: sureshot;1143324Either PF2 is selling well and they want to give the fans a new gift as well as regain some of their lost public relations with the fans and the whole police AP debacle. Or they misjudged how much the fans really disliked PF 1E or even worse don't understand D&D gamers. Many of them including myself like to complain and moan about rules issues, yet unlike them I want to actually see the flaws fixed. Many of them want to complain for example about Linear Fight quadratic Wizard except Paizo or Wotc better not touch their godly wizards. Fighters can;t have nice things like the book of 9 Swords because "anime" and "broken" except nothing wrong with high level casters at all in the game.
All rpg gamers like to complain about the rules most of them imo want them fixed. D&D players or at least Pathfinder players like to do the same but you better never ever change anything.
This is D&D fandom in a nutshell:
They want their D&D the way that they want it. Yes, needs some things to be fixed in the next edition, but when you fix things, don't change
anything; keep it just like it was before, only make it better!
Now this inherent conservatism has saved D&D on at least 2 occasions. First with the 3e rules and then post 4e. WOTC just cannot depart too far from certain sacred cows in the D&D DNA without hemorrhaging customers.
Which makes a 6th edition around the 50th anniversary of D&D
inevitable IMHO. They will want a SJW edition from the ground up in the same way that 4e was a forgist system from the ground up.
But I think that WOkeTC has gotten subverted to the point that they just don't give a shit about that anymore. And Hasbro Corp will find it difficult to come down on the woke until they start seeing some serious sales losses.
Unfortunately Venger was right, when he said most D&D fans will just bend over and take the woke now that the SJW brigade is starting to have its way with 5e.
The same with Baizuo.
They have a long standing dedicated fanbase. Who have proven that they will ignore the woke so long as their favorite 3.x clone pumps out new content. So even an own goal like PF2 will at best only start a slow slide back into mediocrity.
Although one can make the argument that they are already there...
As an aside I think that D&D as a game has become bland largely because it has become extremely self-referential in its lore, and its default playstyle has become far too informed by a generation of players who grew up playing computer rpg's and seem to subconsciously want to have similar play experiences in both mediums despite how contradictory that desire is given the differences between the two formats that only appear similar on first glance.
I was standing in a FLGS the other day. I picked up and thumbed through a couple of PF2 books. I thought to myself, "you know you don't want this"; and promptly returned them to their place on the shelf.
Quote from: Razor 007;1143495I was standing in a FLGS the other day. I picked up and thumbed through a couple of PF2 books. I thought to myself, "you know you don't want this"; and promptly returned them to their place on the shelf.
I had a similar reaction to the Bundle. I don't mind reading pdf's in general, but I realised I just wasn't going to read through all this stuff or ever be very interested in playing it.
Quote from: Jaeger;1143085It is never too late to stop smoking crack.
You publicly admit to using Savage Worlds to Play Rifts. 5 out of 10 gamers agree that you have no moral compass.
I have gotten to the point that no system I run survives without some form of modification.
My Star Wars game is pure a dicepool homebrew system. And the game I started using Honor+Intrigue is also heavily modded.
I can change mechanics to the way I think things should be, and my changes work in actual play at the table. So I do.
Truth is Truth though.
Currently playing in a 5e game. One of the group wanted to Gm. It works because our group makes it work. I'll just say that the system could have been made smoother and leave it at that lest I be accused of D&D bashing.
This is easy.
The damage was already done by Chaosium's stubborn insistence over 3 decades that Gorlantha is actually a good setting. And not one of the variants has a setting that engages people to give their system a try. This is of course much easier said than done.
Also, the Mythras designers need to answer their damn phones. Because 1994 called it wants its absurd crunch levels back. So it Fucking Sucks.
FYI, If any of you out there are still at a loss wondering why your favorite system Fucking Sucks? Do not despair!
Uncle Jaeger is here all week to answer your pleas for help, and drop wisdom speaking real truth to power on why the Made of Fail RPG you are currently running Fucking Sucks.
Project harder, I want to watch
Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143525Project harder, I want to watch Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.
I project nothing.
I merely speak truth to power for all those who would know true wisdom about all things that Fucking Suck.
That some are incapable of discerning the hyperbole from the literal is not my problem.
And watching
Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.
The only thing better would be a
Big Trouble In Little China and
Road House IMAX double feature.
Quote from: Jaeger;1143590I project nothing.
I merely speak truth to power for all those who would know true wisdom about all things that Fucking Suck.
That some are incapable of discerning the hyperbole from the literal is not my problem.
And watching Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.
The only thing better would be a Big Trouble In Little China and Road House IMAX double feature.
You sound like Vox Day.
This isn't a good thing.
Quote from: Marchand;1143523I had a similar reaction to the Bundle. I don't mind reading pdf's in general, but I realised I just wasn't going to read through all this stuff or ever be very interested in playing it.
Yeah I passed on it as well. If I want rules-heavy D20, I'll break out FantasyCraft.
Quote from: Jaeger;1143590And watching Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.
The only thing better would be a Big Trouble In Little China and Road House IMAX double feature.
Not a good idea. The theater would collapse into a black hole of pure awesome.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143525Project harder, I want to watch Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.
He is right about Rifts though.
Half the point of the system is how ridiculously unbalanced certain things are and then having it not matter a whit that you're playing a godling cosmo-knight because someone way cleverer than you running a Coalition Tech has lured you into a trap where a dozen high-explosive LRMs are wired to go off in your face for 2D6x100MD each and there's no place in the room far enough for you to evade the blast radius.
Savage Rifts was a sad attempt to make Rifts "more fair" which really means A) more boring and B) shutting down crazy player plans that allow them overcome things that by all rights shouldn't be possible because they don't fit "the narrative."
There's nothing more fun in Rifts than playing a Ley Line Walker like they're an actual human being (i.e. really doesn't like killing or even attacking anyone) and creatively employing spells and quick thinking to resolve problems without a body count.* I'd never have been able to do a quarter of what I pulled off (mostly using spells no higher than level 4) in Savage Rifts.
* The fact that it kinda pissed off the combat monkey in the power armor who wanted to solve everything with missile salvos but never got the chance because I'd already solved the problem through guile, stealth and creative magic use without a shot being fired was a bonus... man was he pissed when he thought he was going to get to shoot stampeding dinosaurs that endangered a town only for me to rush ahead and by a combo of blinding flashes and thunderclaps change their course so they no longer threatened the town.
Quote from: Chris24601;1143613He is right about Rifts though.
Half the point of the system is how ridiculously unbalanced certain things are and then having it not matter a whit that you're playing a godling cosmo-knight because someone way cleverer than you running a Coalition Tech has lured you into a trap where a dozen high-explosive LRMs are wired to go off in your face for 2D6x100MD each and there's no place in the room far enough for you to evade the blast radius.
Savage Rifts was a sad attempt to make Rifts "more fair" which really means A) more boring and B) shutting down crazy player plans that allow them overcome things that by all rights shouldn't be possible because they don't fit "the narrative."
There's nothing more fun in Rifts than playing a Ley Line Walker like they're an actual human being (i.e. really doesn't like killing or even attacking anyone) and creatively employing spells and quick thinking to resolve problems without a body count.* I'd never have been able to do a quarter of what I pulled off (mostly using spells no higher than level 4) in Savage Rifts.
* The fact that it kinda pissed off the combat monkey in the power armor who wanted to solve everything with missile salvos but never got the chance because I'd already solved the problem through guile, stealth and creative magic use without a shot being fired was a bonus... man was he pissed when he thought he was going to get to shoot stampeding dinosaurs that endangered a town only for me to rush ahead and by a combo of blinding flashes and thunderclaps change their course so they no longer threatened the town.
Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude.
I disagree that Savage Rifts 'shuts down crazy player plans'. We routinely do that, and if you need to pull a rabbit out of your hat, oh hey look at those shiny bennies. Last time I played Rifts, we jacked a Coalition transport despite my teammate and I barely having enough Drive/Pilot to run the damn thing. Mostly through sheer chutzpah and a little directed violence.
If you need -rules- to support your 'crazy player plans', you might wonder how crazy they really are.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143666Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude.
I disagree that Savage Rifts 'shuts down crazy player plans'. We routinely do that, and if you need to pull a rabbit out of your hat, oh hey look at those shiny bennies. Last time I played Rifts, we jacked a Coalition transport despite my teammate and I barely having enough Drive/Pilot to run the damn thing. Mostly through sheer chutzpah and a little directed violence.
If you need -rules- to support your 'crazy player plans', you might wonder how crazy they really are.
Interestingly, I that the argument is that Palladium RIFTS rules are so broken the rules don't even matter that much, which really makes me wonder WTF is the point of any RPG system if the rules are truly so irrelevant.
Either way I disagree that broken systems somehow facilitate crazy plans, but better structured or balanced systems don't. Anyone can come up with crazy shit regardless of system, it's only a matter of player attitude and having the right GM to bring crazy shit into play. But at least well structured and balanced systems facilitate overall consistency and regular gameplay. Broken systems mostly facilitate broken results you sort of have to handwave to make work, or in the case of Palladium RIFTS make believe that humanity is somehow still around despite every other critter in the world being able to do multiple dice of MDC, when just a single point of MDC is enough to utterly obliterate a typical, less than 100 SDC human and turn them into red mist.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1143678Interestingly, I that the argument is that Palladium RIFTS rules are so broken the rules don't even matter that much, which really makes me wonder WTF is the point of any RPG system if the rules are truly so irrelevant.
I think its fine for some people, but as a GM prefer consistent rules. The less basis for the existence for any option exists, the more I feel I'm just deciding what happens or not. And then I get bored.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1143678Either way I disagree that broken systems somehow facilitate crazy plans, but better structured or balanced systems don't. Anyone can come up with crazy shit regardless of system, it's only a matter of player attitude and having the right GM to bring crazy shit into play.
Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR. :D
Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR. :D
Yeah that's the opposite extreme end of this sort of thing.
Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR. :D
I played a few games of that where the MM was the army book and you picked creatures to fight the other guy's creatures in simple, map-based minis combat. It was fun for that, at least, but I didn't like it much as an RPG.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143748I played a few games of that where the MM was the army book and you picked creatures to fight the other guy's creatures in simple, map-based minis combat. It was fun for that, at least, but I didn't like it much as an RPG.
Yeah, I played one of their 4e based minis combat games that worked like that; much better combat than the actual RPG.
Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR. :D
It was balanced via symmetry - which is the laziest and most boring way to balance. TTRPGs thrive on asymmetry.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143606You sound like Vox Day.
This isn't a good thing.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4754[/ATTACH]
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143666Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude...
Verily, as my replies to the maker of Ghosts groweth in puffery; the more literal have they been taken.
So it is witnessed. So it shall be written.
Quote from: Chris24601;1143613He is right about Rifts though...
Bless you my child.
Go thy way, and Palladium no more.
Quote from: Aglondir;1143611Not a good idea. The theater would collapse into a black hole of pure awesome.
Ahhh, but the ride down would be worth it!
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1143779It was balanced via symmetry - which is the laziest and most boring way to balance. TTRPGs thrive on asymmetry.
This.
While I do appreciate that 4e did have very concrete design goals. (not that I agree with them). The execution left a lot to be desired.
Nailing a more or less "balanced" asymmetry is very hard.
D&D has continually fought with this - especially since 3e.
But IMHO that has a lot to do with various design teams reluctance to touch the two issues of; constantly inflating hit points, and to give the spell list a proper once over with a carving knife that would most likely result in continual high-pitched nerd rage screams of "Nerfing!".
As to what any of this has to do with how PF2 is faring..?
Well, somewhere between pages 6-8 of this thread we have all seemed to stop giving a damn...
Quote from: Jaeger;1144021Well, somewhere between pages 6-8 of this thread we have all seemed to stop giving a damn...
Like a lot of Paizo's customers, apparently...
I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again. They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1. They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.
Quote from: Jaeger;1144021Bless you my child.
Go thy way, and Palladium no more.
Fuck that! Palladium and realRifts is AWESOME! It's the Savage Worlds take on Rifts that sucked.
I'll also take any edition of Palladium Fantasy over any edition of D&D any day of the week.
Quote from: Razor 007;1144042I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again. They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1. They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.
As long as you're making money, who cares? It's like Hiro Protagonist in
Snow Crash. You don't have to be the biggest badass in the world; sometimes it's enough to be a smaller but still tangible badass.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144046As long as you're making money, who cares? It's like Hiro Protagonist in Snow Crash. You don't have to be the biggest badass in the world; sometimes it's enough to be a smaller but still tangible badass.
Heck, I'd be happy at the "Thousand True Fans*" level of support for my system.
* this is basically the theory that if a creator can get a thousand people who will buy everything they can produce in a year then the creator will be able to support themselves off that income. The actual number varies with the medium and, obviously, cost of living in your area.
Quote from: Chris24601;1144045Fuck that! Palladium and realRifts is AWESOME! It's the Savage Worlds take on Rifts that sucked.
I'll also take any edition of Palladium Fantasy over any edition of D&D any day of the week.
Gonna disagree there. If you want to talk more about boring characters, Palladium Fantasy martials are some of the most boring imaginable. Palladium just sucks in general. Its not focused enough to be considered an OSR game, doesn't have enough interesting mechanics to be a fun "modern" game. The problem with Palladium, and most of my campaigns have taken place in a Palladium setting, is that there are so many good ideas hampered by the garbage system.
Quote from: Razor 007;1144042I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again. They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1. They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.
Ah yes, very important to laugh at those companies that will never be in the top 2.
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1144128Gonna disagree there. If you want to talk more about boring characters, Palladium Fantasy martials are some of the most boring imaginable. Palladium just sucks in general. Its not focused enough to be considered an OSR game, doesn't have enough interesting mechanics to be a fun "modern" game. The problem with Palladium, and most of my campaigns have taken place in a Palladium setting, is that there are so many good ideas hampered by the garbage system.
Serious question... were you playing First or Second Edition Palladium Fantasy? It makes a HUGE difference.
The quick way to tell is, do PC's have personal SDC, do physical skills improve your abilities and does spellcasting use PPE. If so then it's 2nd Edition and nowhere near as good.
First Edition Palladium Fantasy is VERY focused and easy to use. The bonuses remain low enough that an Armor's AR is actually a useful defense and without the SDC bloat both PCs and monsters are more vulnerable. Similarly, X spells per day (regardless of the spell level) was a LOT more intuitive and easier to track than PPE and work a lot better with the original action economy (i.e. pre-Rifts those without Hand to Hand got one attack, those with Hand to Hand got 2-4 depending on level) and spellcasters could use one spell per round).
Second Edition was a literal case of trying to fix what wasn't broken by importing a bunch of later mechanics to make the game fully cross-compatible with the rest of the Palladium systems... instead it killed the simple charms of the original game and the classes still weren't good enough to compete with people who had actual MD weapons and armor (plus the Ley Line Walker of Rifts still blew even the 2nd Edition Fantasy Wizard out of the water).
Quote from: Chris24601;1144171Serious question... were you playing First or Second Edition Palladium Fantasy? It makes a HUGE difference.
The quick way to tell is, do PC's have personal SDC, do physical skills improve your abilities and does spellcasting use PPE. If so then it's 2nd Edition and nowhere near as good.
First Edition Palladium Fantasy is VERY focused and easy to use. The bonuses remain low enough that an Armor's AR is actually a useful defense and without the SDC bloat both PCs and monsters are more vulnerable. Similarly, X spells per day (regardless of the spell level) was a LOT more intuitive and easier to track than PPE and work a lot better with the original action economy (i.e. pre-Rifts those without Hand to Hand got one attack, those with Hand to Hand got 2-4 depending on level) and spellcasters could use one spell per round).
Second Edition was a literal case of trying to fix what wasn't broken by importing a bunch of later mechanics to make the game fully cross-compatible with the rest of the Palladium systems... instead it killed the simple charms of the original game and the classes still weren't good enough to compete with people who had actual MD weapons and armor (plus the Ley Line Walker of Rifts still blew even the 2nd Edition Fantasy Wizard out of the water).
That is a good point. Either way, I don't play palladium games vanilla really, and have made like a palladium like system to convert into.
I read that "Gaming is for all" thing in the beginning of this thread with surprise. It seems quite arrogant to me for a game designer to tell you how you're supposed to behave at your table and what sort of language you're supposed to use when playing your game. Their job is to write the game rules. Which dice to roll in which circumstance. That's it. Who gave them the job of telling you how to behave? That thing sounded like a parent lecturing a child. It really did verge into being insulting.
Quote from: kidkaos2;1144489I read that "Gaming is for all" thing in the beginning of this thread with surprise. It seems quite arrogant to me for a game designer to tell you how you're supposed to behave at your table and what sort of language you're supposed to use when playing your game. Their job is to write the game rules. Which dice to roll in which circumstance. That's it. Who gave them the job of telling you how to behave? That thing sounded like a parent lecturing a child. It really did verge into being insulting.
That's what happens when companies go woke imo.
All they had to do was "be kind and respectful to you and our players and have fun". Instead we get Paizo telling players and DMs to be armchair psychologists which I think is dangerous on it's own. It's not my place to be amateur psychologist at the gaming table especially when a player and/or the dM has legitimate mental health issues. One thing these Woke rog companies don't take into account. It was the overall tone that was and is still insulting. Unfortunately the company is rotten to the core with the philosophy of SJW. Ban or remove posts not catering to that or their overall feelings on a topic. They were ripped a new one because they apologized for having the fantasy version of police in their newest adventure path. It was embarrassing picture someone forgot to give a prized book back to their friend and then on their stomach grovelling for forgiveness.
If Paizo is hurting on PF2 sales, why is it they increase the number of employees they have and are at an all time high in number of employees? Particularly now, when they could lay people off fairly safely and let them be on super-unemployment, why would they continue to higher people like this if their bottom line is down so much?
That's not snark, I am asking an honest question. What's going on over there at Paizo?
Quote from: Mistwell;1144537If Paizo is hurting on PF2 sales, why is it they increase the number of employees they have and are at an all time high in number of employees? Particularly now, when they could lay people off fairly safely and let them be on super-unemployment, why would they continue to higher people like this if their bottom line is down so much?
That's not snark, I am asking an honest question. What's going on over there at Paizo?
Well, most everyone is telecommuting right now, so it's easy to add new "creative" staff in that respect. No real capital expense in on-boarding new staff.
Further, despite all of their professed support of a "living wage" it's not like they're paying them any more than the bare minimum they're legally required to.
There's a ton of people, disillusioned enough to believe it matters, who will crawl over their family (and shove them aside) to be able to put Paizo on their resume.
Quote from: Chris24601;1144045Fuck that! Palladium and realRifts is AWESOME! ...
I'll also take any edition of Palladium Fantasy over any edition of D&D any day of the week.
Deceiver! Blasphemer! Heretic!
BURN HIM! BURN HIM!
BUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNN HHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM*cough*cough*cough* MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1144128.. Palladium just sucks in general. ...
I bless you.
May you hold fast and continue to walk the path of True Wisdom.
Quote from: Shasarak;1144153Ah yes, very important to laugh at those companies that will never be in the top 2.
This guy gets it.
Quote from: Mistwell;1144537If Paizo is hurting on PF2 sales, why is it they increase the number of employees they have and are at an all time high in number of employees? Particularly now, when they could lay people off fairly safely and let them be on super-unemployment, why would they continue to higher people like this if their bottom line is down so much?
That's not snark, I am asking an honest question. What's going on over there at Paizo?
Well, there's this:
Quote from: kythri;1144547Well, most everyone is telecommuting right now, so it's easy to add new "creative" staff in that respect. No real capital expense in on-boarding new staff.
Further, despite all of their professed support of a "living wage" it's not like they're paying them any more than the bare minimum they're legally required to.
There's a ton of people, disillusioned enough to believe it matters, who will crawl over their family (and shove them aside) to be able to put Paizo on their resume.
Also, nobody really knows.
Baizuo's PR has a long standing reputation of publicly stating that everything is great until they announce the opposite. (Which is totally understandable.)
So no one will know anything until Baizuo says "Oh Fuck". (But then everything will be just peachy once more.)
We do know that all the go-woke go-broke signs are there - It is just not something that will happen at the flip of a switch.
I happen to like the system.
It works for my group.
Never cared for 5E.
I buy the main books and skip on the setting books (I have my own that I have been using since forever so why would I buy theirs?)
If they go belly up tomorrow. I'll still have the books (hard copy and PDF) and can still play it with out any issues just like AD&D 2E and my first edition Earthdawn books etc. etc. etc.
Quote from: Krugus;1144612I happen to like the system.
It works for my group.
Never cared for 5E.
I buy the main books and skip on the setting books (I have my own that I have been using since forever so why would I buy theirs?)
If they go belly up tomorrow. I'll still have the books (hard copy and PDF) and can still play it with out any issues just like AD&D 2E and my first edition Earthdawn books etc. etc. etc.
The character creation has been fun so far. My players and I have been looking for something else. 5e is okay, not amazing, but it works.