Quote from: VisionStorm;1143678Either way I disagree that broken systems somehow facilitate crazy plans, but better structured or balanced systems don't. Anyone can come up with crazy shit regardless of system, it's only a matter of player attitude and having the right GM to bring crazy shit into play.

Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR.

Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR.

Yeah that's the opposite extreme end of this sort of thing.

Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR.

I played a few games of that where the MM was the army book and you picked creatures to fight the other guy's creatures in simple, map-based minis combat. It was fun for that, at least, but I didn't like it much as an RPG.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1143748I played a few games of that where the MM was the army book and you picked creatures to fight the other guy's creatures in simple, map-based minis combat. It was fun for that, at least, but I didn't like it much as an RPG.

Yeah, I played one of their 4e based minis combat games that worked like that; much better combat than the actual RPG.

Quote from: S'mon;1143695Have you played 4e D&D? Most structured & balanced system EVAR.

It was balanced via symmetry - which is the laziest and most boring way to balance. TTRPGs thrive on asymmetry.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143606You sound like Vox Day.

This isn't a good thing.

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Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143666Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude...

Verily, as my replies to the maker of Ghosts groweth in puffery; the more literal have they been taken.

So it is witnessed. So it shall be written.

Quote from: Chris24601;1143613He is right about Rifts though...

Bless you my child.

Go thy way, and Palladium no more.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143611Not a good idea. The theater would collapse into a black hole of pure awesome.

Ahhh, but the ride down would be worth it!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1143779It was balanced via symmetry - which is the laziest and most boring way to balance. TTRPGs thrive on asymmetry.

This.

While I do appreciate that 4e did have very concrete design goals. (not that I agree with them). The execution left a lot to be desired.

Nailing a more or less "balanced" asymmetry is very hard.

D&D has continually fought with this - especially since 3e.

But IMHO that has a lot to do with various design teams reluctance to touch the two issues of; constantly inflating hit points, and to give the spell list a proper once over with a carving knife that would most likely result in continual high-pitched nerd rage screams of "Nerfing!".

As to what any of this has to do with how PF2 is faring..?

Well, somewhere between pages 6-8 of this thread we have all seemed to stop giving a damn...

Quote from: Jaeger;1144021Well, somewhere between pages 6-8 of this thread we have all seemed to stop giving a damn...

Like a lot of Paizo's customers, apparently...

I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again.  They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1.  They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.

Quote from: Jaeger;1144021Bless you my child.

Go thy way, and Palladium no more.

Fuck that! Palladium and realRifts is AWESOME! It's the Savage Worlds take on Rifts that sucked.

I'll also take any edition of Palladium Fantasy over any edition of D&D any day of the week.

Quote from: Razor 007;1144042I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again.  They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1.  They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.

As long as you're making money, who cares? It's like Hiro Protagonist in Snow Crash. You don't have to be the biggest badass in the world; sometimes it's enough to be a smaller but still tangible badass.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144046As long as you're making money, who cares? It's like Hiro Protagonist in Snow Crash. You don't have to be the biggest badass in the world; sometimes it's enough to be a smaller but still tangible badass.

Heck, I'd be happy at the "Thousand True Fans*" level of support for my system.

* this is basically the theory that if a creator can get a thousand people who will buy everything they can produce in a year then the creator will be able to support themselves off that income. The actual number varies with the medium and, obviously, cost of living in your area.

Quote from: Chris24601;1144045Fuck that! Palladium and realRifts is AWESOME! It's the Savage Worlds take on Rifts that sucked.

I'll also take any edition of Palladium Fantasy over any edition of D&D any day of the week.

Gonna disagree there. If you want to talk more about boring characters, Palladium Fantasy martials are some of the most boring imaginable. Palladium just sucks in general. Its not focused enough to be considered an OSR game, doesn't have enough interesting mechanics to be a fun "modern" game. The problem with Palladium, and most of my campaigns have taken place in a Palladium setting, is that there are so many good ideas hampered by the garbage system.

Quote from: Razor 007;1144042I suspect that the entire team at Paizo realizes that they will never be #1 again.  They understand that their ship has sailed on being #1.  They have probably resigned themselves to being #2, as long as they can.

Ah yes, very important to laugh at those companies that will never be in the top 2.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1144128Gonna disagree there. If you want to talk more about boring characters, Palladium Fantasy martials are some of the most boring imaginable. Palladium just sucks in general. Its not focused enough to be considered an OSR game, doesn't have enough interesting mechanics to be a fun "modern" game. The problem with Palladium, and most of my campaigns have taken place in a Palladium setting, is that there are so many good ideas hampered by the garbage system.

Serious question... were you playing First or Second Edition Palladium Fantasy? It makes a HUGE difference.

The quick way to tell is, do PC's have personal SDC, do physical skills improve your abilities and does spellcasting use PPE. If so then it's 2nd Edition and nowhere near as good.

First Edition Palladium Fantasy is VERY focused and easy to use. The bonuses remain low enough that an Armor's AR is actually a useful defense and without the SDC bloat both PCs and monsters are more vulnerable. Similarly, X spells per day (regardless of the spell level) was a LOT more intuitive and easier to track than PPE and work a lot better with the original action economy (i.e. pre-Rifts those without Hand to Hand got one attack, those with Hand to Hand got 2-4 depending on level) and spellcasters could use one spell per round).

Second Edition was a literal case of trying to fix what wasn't broken by importing a bunch of later mechanics to make the game fully cross-compatible with the rest of the Palladium systems... instead it killed the simple charms of the original game and the classes still weren't good enough to compete with people who had actual MD weapons and armor (plus the Ley Line Walker of Rifts still blew even the 2nd Edition Fantasy Wizard out of the water).

Quote from: Chris24601;1144171Serious question... were you playing First or Second Edition Palladium Fantasy? It makes a HUGE difference.

The quick way to tell is, do PC's have personal SDC, do physical skills improve your abilities and does spellcasting use PPE. If so then it's 2nd Edition and nowhere near as good.

First Edition Palladium Fantasy is VERY focused and easy to use. The bonuses remain low enough that an Armor's AR is actually a useful defense and without the SDC bloat both PCs and monsters are more vulnerable. Similarly, X spells per day (regardless of the spell level) was a LOT more intuitive and easier to track than PPE and work a lot better with the original action economy (i.e. pre-Rifts those without Hand to Hand got one attack, those with Hand to Hand got 2-4 depending on level) and spellcasters could use one spell per round).

Second Edition was a literal case of trying to fix what wasn't broken by importing a bunch of later mechanics to make the game fully cross-compatible with the rest of the Palladium systems... instead it killed the simple charms of the original game and the classes still weren't good enough to compete with people who had actual MD weapons and armor (plus the Ley Line Walker of Rifts still blew even the 2nd Edition Fantasy Wizard out of the water).

That is a good point. Either way, I don't play palladium games vanilla really, and have made like a palladium like system to convert into.