Either PF2 is selling well and they want to give the fans a new gift as well as regain some of their lost public relations with the fans and the whole police AP debacle. Or they misjudged how much the fans really disliked PF 1E or even worse don't understand D&D gamers. Many of them including myself like to complain and moan about rules issues, yet unlike them I want to actually see the flaws fixed. Many of them want to complain for example about Linear Fight quadratic Wizard except Paizo or Wotc better not touch their godly wizards. Fighters can;t have nice things like the book of 9 Swords because "anime" and "broken" except nothing wrong with high level casters at all in the game.

PF needed something new as it was mostly a rehash of 3.5. I like the changes Paizo did with PF 1E they left overall flaws of the 3.5 mostly intact. If I choose to play a melee class unless I want a challenge and too lazy I take a Fighter. They get more feats ( like no one else gets them ). Boring class abilites +4 Bravery at high level cause that is going to get me through Saving Throw college. Cavalier is my go to Fighter class and imo what the class should have been. Even if high level casters still overshadow them they get better class abilities.

All rpg gamers like to complain about the rules most of them imo want them fixed. D&D players or at least Pathfinder players like to do the same but you better never ever change anything.

Hi all I was poking my nose in on phone here's my 2 ¢.
The way I see pf2 is a messed up strange 3.5 on crack not fun on crack bad on crack.
At the end of the day it dose 99 things I wanted from a ttrpg but then fuck it up in the strangest little ways.
A good example look at the item weight rules its an x number of items system that means you cant carry squat but then look at the way equipment is listed and much like dnd there's this casual asumption that the party is carrying niche use equipment.
Now I did the math and there's simply not enough room in that system to carry your equipment and have your normal kit and standard safety items a potion of two a cleric on a stick 50 ft of chain 10 ft pole fire flask or two nothing extravagant just normal stuff.
Then this is compounded by the fact difrent weapons are definatly intended for diferent types of encounters and situations.
Now can this be fixed by importing rules from pf1e yes but then theres tons of other little things that each need there own little fix.

If I give them the benefit of the doubt its because they never truly played that way and simply neglected to update the rules in testing if I dont they never played it at all and did it all base on how they thought it worked in theory.
Now if thats the case they forgot a simple but important lession. The difference between theory and practice is bigger in practice then in theory.

All this leads to my final summation of the system being its not worth the effort.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1143353All this leads to my final summation of the system being its not worth the effort.

That was certainly my feeling after playing a few sessions. The GM seemed to enjoy herself though.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143132Id play 5e over 4e, but I respect 4e more. In its own twisted way, it was trying to address complaints about 3e and focus the game on what it thought people wanted.
...

This, 5e is design by commite and it shows.

But it is also the reason WOTC stumbled over its own dick with 4e and made a massive hit.

Its very blandness allows most people to squint and see what they want to see in the game. Which lead to its widespread adoption by gamers post 4e.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143198My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.
.

5e crunch is what I like to call "Book-Keeping Crunch". After the first few levels You constantly have to track this or that ability, spell, etc...

For me it is neither hot nor cold, so I spit it out.

And while I loath the 'Getting out of your way' rules set/playstyle - It is exactly what allows GM's to play fast and loose with the rules so that their popular streaming shows seem so effortless and everyone can all talk about what a wonderful session of D&D it was.

Lots of groups like it because it does nothing to inhibit their preferred playstyle. Even though their preferred playstyle would probably be easier to engage in with a more focused game system .

But 5e has the D&D logo on the cover, and the power of 'good enough' is never to be underestimated for the RPG market leader...

Quote from: kosmos1214;1143353...

At the end of the day it dose 99 things I wanted from a ttrpg but then fuck it up in the strangest little ways.

If I give them the benefit of the doubt its because they never truly played that way and simply neglected to update the rules in testing if I dont they never played it at all and did it all base on how they thought it worked in theory. ...

This is more or less my view of PF2 after looking at the rules. They have a few good ideas, and a few things that are done better than 5e. But ultimately it is a game catering to the hardcore 3e players who still want MOAAR! +1+2 crunch and munch.

Fuck that!

Which is of course why Pathfinder 2e Fucking Sucks.

Quote from: sureshot;1143324Either PF2 is selling well and they want to give the fans a new gift as well as regain some of their lost public relations with the fans and the whole police AP debacle. Or they misjudged how much the fans really disliked PF 1E or even worse don't understand D&D gamers. Many of them including myself like to complain and moan about rules issues, yet unlike them I want to actually see the flaws fixed. Many of them want to complain for example about Linear Fight quadratic Wizard except Paizo or Wotc better not touch their godly wizards. Fighters can;t have nice things like the book of 9 Swords because "anime" and "broken" except nothing wrong with high level casters at all in the game.

All rpg gamers like to complain about the rules most of them imo want them fixed. D&D players or at least Pathfinder players like to do the same but you better never ever change anything.

This is D&D fandom in a nutshell:

They want their D&D the way that they want it. Yes, needs some things to be fixed in the next edition, but when you fix things, don't change anything; keep it just like it was before, only make it better!

Now this inherent conservatism has saved D&D on at least 2 occasions. First with the 3e rules and then post 4e. WOTC just cannot depart too far from certain sacred cows in the D&D DNA without hemorrhaging customers.

Which makes a 6th edition around the 50th anniversary of D&D inevitable IMHO. They will want a SJW edition from the ground up in the same way that 4e was a forgist system from the ground up.


But I think that WOkeTC has gotten subverted to the point that they just don't give a shit about that anymore. And Hasbro Corp will find it difficult to come down on the woke until they start seeing some serious sales losses.

Unfortunately Venger was right, when he said most D&D fans will just bend over and take the woke now that the SJW brigade is starting to have its way with 5e.

The same with Baizuo.

They have a long standing dedicated fanbase. Who have proven that they will ignore the woke so long as their favorite 3.x clone pumps out new content. So even an own goal like PF2 will at best only start a slow slide back into mediocrity.

Although one can make the argument that they are already there...


As an aside I think that D&D as a game has become bland largely because it has become extremely self-referential in its lore, and its default playstyle has become far too informed by a generation of players who grew up playing computer rpg's and seem to subconsciously want to have similar play experiences in both mediums despite how contradictory that desire is given the differences between the two formats that only appear similar on first glance.

I was standing in a FLGS the other day.  I picked up and thumbed through a couple of PF2 books.  I thought to myself, "you know you don't want this"; and promptly returned them to their place on the shelf.

Quote from: Razor 007;1143495I was standing in a FLGS the other day.  I picked up and thumbed through a couple of PF2 books.  I thought to myself, "you know you don't want this"; and promptly returned them to their place on the shelf.

I had a similar reaction to the Bundle. I don't mind reading pdf's in general, but I realised I just wasn't going to read through all this stuff or ever be very interested in playing it.

Quote from: Jaeger;1143085It is never too late to stop smoking crack.





You publicly admit to using Savage Worlds to Play Rifts. 5 out of 10 gamers agree that you have no moral compass.





I have gotten to the point that no system I run survives without some form of modification.

My Star Wars game is pure a dicepool homebrew system. And the game I started using Honor+Intrigue is also heavily modded.

I can change mechanics to the way I think things should be, and my changes work in actual play at the table. So I do.




Truth is Truth though.

Currently playing in a 5e game. One of the group wanted to Gm. It works because our group makes it work. I'll just say that the system could have been made smoother and leave it at that lest I be accused of D&D bashing.




This is easy.

The damage was already done by Chaosium's stubborn insistence over 3 decades that Gorlantha is actually a good setting. And not one of the variants has a setting that engages people to give their system a try. This is of course much easier said than done.

Also, the Mythras designers need to answer their damn phones. Because 1994 called it wants its absurd crunch levels back. So it Fucking Sucks.


FYI, If any of you out there are still at a loss wondering why your favorite system Fucking Sucks? Do not despair!

Uncle Jaeger is here all week to answer your pleas for help, and drop wisdom speaking real truth to power on why the Made of Fail RPG you are currently running Fucking Sucks.

Project harder, I want to watch Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143525Project harder, I want to watch Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.

I project nothing.

I merely speak truth to power for all those who would know true wisdom about all things that Fucking Suck.

That some are incapable of discerning the hyperbole from the literal is not my problem.


And watching Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.

The only thing better would be a Big Trouble In Little China  and Road House IMAX double feature.

Quote from: Jaeger;1143590I project nothing.

I merely speak truth to power for all those who would know true wisdom about all things that Fucking Suck.

That some are incapable of discerning the hyperbole from the literal is not my problem.


And watching Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.

The only thing better would be a Big Trouble In Little China  and Road House IMAX double feature.

You sound like Vox Day.

This isn't a good thing.

Quote from: Marchand;1143523I had a similar reaction to the Bundle. I don't mind reading pdf's in general, but I realised I just wasn't going to read through all this stuff or ever be very interested in playing it.

Yeah I passed on it as well. If I want rules-heavy D20, I'll break out FantasyCraft.

Quote from: Jaeger;1143590And watching Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX would be truly glorious.

The only thing better would be a Big Trouble In Little China  and Road House IMAX double feature.

Not a good idea. The theater would collapse into a black hole of pure awesome.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143525Project harder, I want to watch Big Trouble In Little China in IMAX.

He is right about Rifts though.

Half the point of the system is how ridiculously unbalanced certain things are and then having it not matter a whit that you're playing a godling cosmo-knight because someone way cleverer than you running a Coalition Tech has lured you into a trap where a dozen high-explosive LRMs are wired to go off in your face for 2D6x100MD each and there's no place in the room far enough for you to evade the blast radius.

Savage Rifts was a sad attempt to make Rifts "more fair" which really means A) more boring and B) shutting down crazy player plans that allow them overcome things that by all rights shouldn't be possible because they don't fit "the narrative."

There's nothing more fun in Rifts than playing a Ley Line Walker like they're an actual human being (i.e. really doesn't like killing or even attacking anyone) and creatively employing spells and quick thinking to resolve problems without a body count.* I'd never have been able to do a quarter of what I pulled off (mostly using spells no higher than level 4) in Savage Rifts.

 * The fact that it kinda pissed off the combat monkey in the power armor who wanted to solve everything with missile salvos but never got the chance because I'd already solved the problem through guile, stealth and creative magic use without a shot being fired was a bonus... man was he pissed when he thought he was going to get to shoot stampeding dinosaurs that endangered a town only for me to rush ahead and by a combo of blinding flashes and thunderclaps change their course so they no longer threatened the town.

Quote from: Chris24601;1143613He is right about Rifts though.

Half the point of the system is how ridiculously unbalanced certain things are and then having it not matter a whit that you're playing a godling cosmo-knight because someone way cleverer than you running a Coalition Tech has lured you into a trap where a dozen high-explosive LRMs are wired to go off in your face for 2D6x100MD each and there's no place in the room far enough for you to evade the blast radius.

Savage Rifts was a sad attempt to make Rifts "more fair" which really means A) more boring and B) shutting down crazy player plans that allow them overcome things that by all rights shouldn't be possible because they don't fit "the narrative."

There's nothing more fun in Rifts than playing a Ley Line Walker like they're an actual human being (i.e. really doesn't like killing or even attacking anyone) and creatively employing spells and quick thinking to resolve problems without a body count.* I'd never have been able to do a quarter of what I pulled off (mostly using spells no higher than level 4) in Savage Rifts.

 * The fact that it kinda pissed off the combat monkey in the power armor who wanted to solve everything with missile salvos but never got the chance because I'd already solved the problem through guile, stealth and creative magic use without a shot being fired was a bonus... man was he pissed when he thought he was going to get to shoot stampeding dinosaurs that endangered a town only for me to rush ahead and by a combo of blinding flashes and thunderclaps change their course so they no longer threatened the town.

Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude.

I disagree that Savage Rifts 'shuts down crazy player plans'. We routinely do that, and if you need to pull a rabbit out of your hat, oh hey look at those shiny bennies. Last time I played Rifts, we jacked a Coalition transport despite my teammate and I barely having enough Drive/Pilot to run the damn thing. Mostly through sheer chutzpah and a little directed violence.

If you need -rules- to support your 'crazy player plans', you might wonder how crazy they really are.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143666Not really taking issue with Rifts, more his arrogant 'everything sucks and if you don't agree you're just stupid' attitude.

I disagree that Savage Rifts 'shuts down crazy player plans'. We routinely do that, and if you need to pull a rabbit out of your hat, oh hey look at those shiny bennies. Last time I played Rifts, we jacked a Coalition transport despite my teammate and I barely having enough Drive/Pilot to run the damn thing. Mostly through sheer chutzpah and a little directed violence.

If you need -rules- to support your 'crazy player plans', you might wonder how crazy they really are.

Interestingly, I that the argument is that Palladium RIFTS rules are so broken the rules don't even matter that much, which really makes me wonder WTF is the point of any RPG system if the rules are truly so irrelevant.

Either way I disagree that broken systems somehow facilitate crazy plans, but better structured or balanced systems don't. Anyone can come up with crazy shit regardless of system, it's only a matter of player attitude and having the right GM to bring crazy shit into play. But at least well structured and balanced systems facilitate overall consistency and regular gameplay. Broken systems mostly facilitate broken results you sort of have to handwave to make work, or in the case of Palladium RIFTS make believe that humanity is somehow still around despite every other critter in the world being able to do multiple dice of MDC, when just a single point of MDC is enough to utterly obliterate a typical, less than 100 SDC human and turn them into red mist.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1143678Interestingly, I that the argument is that Palladium RIFTS rules are so broken the rules don't even matter that much, which really makes me wonder WTF is the point of any RPG system if the rules are truly so irrelevant.

I think its fine for some people, but as a GM prefer consistent rules. The less basis for the existence for any option exists, the more I feel I'm just deciding what happens or not. And then I get bored.