Quote from: Shasarak;1143146I would disagree.  My campaign has been going for about a year now and I have been surprised at the depth of the game even, as you say, with the vanilla rules presented in the core rule book.  My Party is at 10th level and the game is hanging together nicely.

Aight. Enjoy. I personally find it a massive downgrade to what I wanted out of PF. I didn't say the rules where shallow. I said they reaked of Paizos insular design and I stand by it. I don't believe liking or disliking it is objective.

To me it still has so much of 3es and PFs fiddliness with tiny numbers. Its given more choices, but more choices of tiny number gains, or complex comboes. And magic has the neatest stuff and the most neat choices out of combat (and in combat) even nerfed.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143150Aight. Enjoy. I personally find it a massive downgrade to what I wanted out of PF. I didn't say the rules where shallow. I said they reaked of Paizos insular design and I stand by it. I don't believe liking or disliking it is objective.

To me it still has so much of 3es and PFs fiddliness with tiny numbers. Its given more choices, but more choices of tiny number gains, or complex comboes. And magic has the neatest stuff and the most neat choices out of combat (and in combat) even nerfed.

Magic having the neatest stuff is 50 years of DnD.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143110Bash away! We need a "5E fucking sucks" thread.

We've had several.

Games can suck for different reasons.  Any given group of players can overcome some aspects of the suck better than other aspects.  For example, 5E is bland, but it doesn't get in my way of running a game I like with players that want to do what I'm doing.  My 5E game is not bland, because it just needs the mechanics to not get in the way.  I could run a very similar game in, say,  BEMCI/RC, and it would also work.  Whereas the suck in 3*/PF does get in my way for that game. Or more to the point, Fantasy Hero or GURPS would also get in my way for this game (though unlike the 3*/PF stuff, would not suck for another game I might run).   If I were running a different game, that might flip, but right now I'm not.

Oh, and Toon is the only game that doesn't suck.  It's just too narrow in scope to replace all the games that do.  

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143181Games can suck for different reasons.  Any given group of players can overcome some aspects of the suck better than other aspects.  For example, 5E is bland, but it doesn't get in my way of running a game I like with players that want to do what I'm doing.  My 5E game is not bland, because it just needs the mechanics to not get in the way.  I could run a very similar game in, say,  BEMCI/RC, and it would also work.  Whereas the suck in 3*/PF does get in my way for that game. Or more to the point, Fantasy Hero or GURPS would also get in my way for this game (though unlike the 3*/PF stuff, would not suck for another game I might run).   If I were running a different game, that might flip, but right now I'm not.

Oh, and Toon is the only game that doesn't suck.  It's just too narrow in scope to replace all the games that do.  

I will agree that one place 5e improves on 4th and 3rd was that it does get out of your way when you want it to.  "Rulings not rules" is a much more traditional view of RPGs (even if 5e gives more lip-service to this than it does execution) and does help make 5e more flexible and tolerable.  But, without the right players and DM, it can get very bland very fast.  It doesn't help that the stock monsters are primarily different sized bags of hp, without a lot to differentiate them.

My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.

Id take 1e, 2e, or OSR stuff thats good at being out of your way with a focus on rulings. 5e is like a pair of glasses at an art museum. Because its so nothing people attribute that nothing intent.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143198My case is 'Getting out of your way' is not a virtue for something you pay for. I feel thats morinic. Since 5e isn't even GOOD at being rules minimal. Its just bad at being crunchy.

Id take 1e, 2e, or OSR stuff thats good at being out of your way with a focus on rulings. 5e is like a pair of glasses at an art museum. Because its so nothing people attribute that nothing intent.

If all it does is get out of your way, I agree with that.  For me, 5E does a few things well.  It just happens that I mostly value what it does well and don't much value a lot that it leaves out.  

BEMCI/RC also mostly works for me in this way, except that some of the wonkiness of race as class and other edge cases make it more difficult for me to accommodate certain play styles that I usually want to so accommodate.  I can do it, but it is a little extra work.  Once I've done that work, in some ways it works better than 5E for me, in others still not as much.  

It also doesn't help in my case that most of the "not bland" options in OSR are not to my taste stylistically.  It's easier to bring my own style to something bland than excise a strong style from something else.  YMMV.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143209If all it does is get out of your way, I agree with that.  For me, 5E does a few things well.  It just happens that I mostly value what it does well and don't much value a lot that it leaves out.  

Huh. What do you find it does well?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143212Huh. What do you find it does well?

If we want to get into that discussion, I'd rather do it in a separate topic.  My example here is really about why PF isn't for me, which is at least tangentially on topic.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143219If we want to get into that discussion, I'd rather do it in a separate topic.  My example here is really about why PF isn't for me, which is at least tangentially on topic.

Could you make a topic for it? I see so much support for 5e on the premise its not Pathfinder, and not on any premises unique to itself.

Edit: Also telling how a discussion of PF 2e became a discussion of D&D 5e.

Am I reading that Humble Bundle right that you can get a hardcopy of the core rules AND just about everything they've made for PF2 in PDF format for $30?

Quote from: Mistwell;1143255Am I reading that Humble Bundle right that you can get a hardcopy of the core rules AND just about everything they've made for PF2 in PDF format for $30?

I think you are. I didnt even like 1e but i was temoted for a moment due to such a great price.

Quote from: Slambo;1143261I think you are. I didnt even like 1e but i was temoted for a moment due to such a great price.

I sold all my PF stuff because I never once played it, got the 2nd edition PDF and decided, "Nope, not for me." But now I am compelled to pay $30 because I'd get a gigantic, shiny new book that I know I will never use. Resisting...

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1143221Could you make a topic for it? I see so much support for 5e on the premise its not Pathfinder, and not on any premises unique to itself.

Edit: Also telling how a discussion of PF 2e became a discussion of D&D 5e.

When you talk about boring games it is just natural for discussion to flow in that direction.

Quote from: Brad;1143265I sold all my PF stuff because I never once played it, got the 2nd edition PDF and decided, "Nope, not for me." But now I am compelled to pay $30 because I'd get a gigantic, shiny new book that I know I will never use. Resisting...

$30 for a shiny new book which has an Amazon price of $39. Seriously considering taking the plunge for the adventures, and selling the shiny thing on Ebay for $30.