Their lets say, philosophy turned me right off from the get go.

Since many of us lets say, dislike the phrasing of the WOTC disclaimers added to legacy product, I'll share the 'Gaming is for All' bit from the Pathfinder 2e:

Here are some excerpts from the "Gaming is For All" section on pages 5-6 of the Playtest Rulebook:

Whether you're a player or a Game Master, participating in a tabletop roleplaying game involves an inherent social contract: everyone has gathered to have fun together, and the table is a safe space for everyone.

Everyone has a right to play and enjoy Pathfinder regardless of their age, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or any other identities and life experiences. Pathfinder is for everyone, and Pathfinder games should be as safe, inclusive, and fun as possible for all.

As a player, it is your responsibility to ensure that you are not creating or contributing to an environment that makes any other players feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, particularly if those players are members of minority or marginalized communities that haven't always been welcome or represented in the larger gaming population.

Thus, it's important to consider your character concepts and roleplaying style and avoid any approach that could cause harm to another player.

A character whose concept and mannerisms are racist tropes, for example, is exceptionally harmful and works against the goal of providing fun for all.

A roleplaying style in which a player or character is constantly interrupting others or treating certain players or characters with condescension is similarly unacceptable.

Furthermore, standards of respect don't vanish simply because you're playing a character in a fantasy game. For example, it's never acceptable to refer to another person using an offensive term or a slur, and doing so "in character" is just as bad as doing so directly.

If your character's concept requires you act this way, that's a good sign your concept is harmful, and you have a responsibility to change it.

Sometimes, you might not realize that your character concept or roleplaying style is making others feel unwelcome at the gaming table. If another player tells you that your character concept or roleplaying style makes them uncomfortable, you shouldn't argue about what they should or shouldn't find offensive or say that what you're doing is common (and therefore okay) among players or in other media.



People of all identities and experiences have a right to be represented in the game, even if they're not necessarily playing at your table.

I'm not even going to address it point-by-point, but let me comment on the unbridled ARROGANCE of that last statement:  Motherfucker - just playing at my table is a PRIVILEGE, and being a GODDAMN IMAGINARY CHARACTER IN MY HEADSPACE DOES NOT COME WITH A BILL OF RIGHTS.  I'm not going down the 'diversity checklist' if I decide to make an ice-age iron-age Frazzeta and Vallejo looking bloodfest I'm not going to stop and go; Hmm... where do I put the trannies?

Fuck them, fuck their game, and fuck these dangerhair clowns that wrote that bullshit.

Here's my RPG disclaimer - "Don't be a dick or people won't let you play."  Print that on the bottom of every page if you want.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.

I don't think Paizo spent much time playtesting either the core game, or the Dead Suns adventure path, because my group managed to derail things a couple times by doing something which seemed logical.

I politely disagree with Savage Worlds sucking, but it DOES take a little getting used to and the probability matrix goes right out the window because while it's easier to hit a TN with a larger dice, it's harder to ace (roll max, which lets you roll again while keeping the maxed roll).

Then again, I am playing Rifts with SW, so I guess SW looks good compared to Palladium...

I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.

Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...

Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.

Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."

I disagree about Savage worlds as well. It's not perfect yet less crunchy and complex than Hero Games or Gurps. Unfortunately both companies owners decided to just focus on the hardcore fanbase and no one else. While being unable to really do anything new because the fanbase insists on no changes. Even then i could understand Hero gaes as they were on life support many years ago. SJGames is weird fans wanted Gurps Vehicles they decided the fanbase really wanted Mars Attacks and Discworld for 4E. Neither book sold well enough.

Funny enough my PF 2E core arrived in the mail today. At least three moths late it arrived. I wonder if these Woke publishers realize how dangerous it is to tell DMs and players to be armchair psychologists at their tables. That should be left to the professionals. In any case this is the same company that thought it was a good idea to apologize for including police in their latest AP. Players playing amoral pirates in another is ok even when the players guide tells a player not to play a Paladin. Or another AP where players are to be as evil as can be. Cops it's the ultimate evil man.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.

Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...

Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.

Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."

That's fucking hilarious, and par for the course with the system.  It doesn't hurt that you get to roll a wild die separately (a d6), so you have two chances to make the die explode.

Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...

Why not just go play that?

As for trying to grow your fanbase these days? Let's be real... the core people that play these days are ideologically indoctrinated before they get into the hobby *most likely* - or not. And the current medium for the game is jam-packed with virtue-signalling folks that want to cater to the newly baptized.

Those that aren't - whether they be game designers, or simply new to the hobby (or veterans) are walking a social-minefield just trying to create groups from scratch. I live in TX and even here, ferreting out normal people that just want to play without the Soy politics is getting tricky.

But I'm going to stay the course. You play what I'm willing to run - or GTFO.

As for PF2- what are they offering that isn't already available in other forms? I jettisoned interest in their design a while back... but the SJW stuff they injected into their game pretty much put the kibosh on everything for me.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.

I was just talking to my brother about the system. There's so much that shouldn't work, but we're having a lot of fun with it. (Had a lot of fun before the lockdowns. Gaming has become very sporadic for us.)

QuoteI don't think Paizo spent much time playtesting either the core game, or the Dead Suns adventure path, because my group managed to derail things a couple times by doing something which seemed logical.

I don't put much stock in their adventure paths. I've got the first 3 Dead Suns books from when I was first getting into the game, but never played them.

Quote from: tenbones;1142963Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...

Why not just go play that?

As for trying to grow your fanbase these days? Let's be real... the core people that play these days are ideologically indoctrinated before they get into the hobby *most likely* - or not. And the current medium for the game is jam-packed with virtue-signalling folks that want to cater to the newly baptized.

Those that aren't - whether they be game designers, or simply new to the hobby (or veterans) are walking a social-minefield just trying to create groups from scratch. I live in TX and even here, ferreting out normal people that just want to play without the Soy politics is getting tricky.

But I'm going to stay the course. You play what I'm willing to run - or GTFO.

As for PF2- what are they offering that isn't already available in other forms? I jettisoned interest in their design a while back... but the SJW stuff they injected into their game pretty much put the kibosh on everything for me.

Unlike ethics and morality, 'suck' is relative when dealing with systems. A good game with good friends will invariably balance out a clunky system.

And settings? Sure, they can frontload their settings with stuff that wouldn't even make it into the Blue Rose canon. Won't stop me from jettisoning it to the curb.

Quote from: Jaeger;1142896There's a decent thread on ENworld: "Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank" Where a guy tracked PF2 sales vs. what PF1 did vs. 5e before PF2 was announced.

I don't think anyone at Baizuo was so much as dreaming of even getting close to 5e, the way that they did with 4e.

But I do think that it is reasonable to assume they were hoping to reverse the steady decline that PF1 was having by revitalizing their fanbase with an exiting new edition.

Pulling PF1 groups back into the fold who had left for 5e or other games. And giving them a healthy bump for an overall different sales trajectory.

Given the data that we have; I think that it is a reasonable educated guess to say that PF2 failed to do that.

Anecdotally - PF1 still has a bigger presence on virtual table top online platforms than PF2. And Paizo currently employs it's largest staff ever...

What exactly all that will mean for Baizuo in the long run? ... Who the fuck knows.


That being said:

IMHO, even if PF2 did not live up to Baizuo's goals and expectations, they still greatly benefit from the fact that All their nearest would-be competitors games Fucking Suck.

Shadowrun 6e Fucking Sucks. The new edition of Champions Fucking Sucks. And no one seems capable of making a Marvel or DC licensed game that does not Fucking Suck. Vampire 5e Fucking Sucks. RuneQuest has a decent system, but Gorlantha always and forever Fucking Sucks. CoC 7th  - same as CoC 6th with more woke = Fucking Sucks. And nobody plays Traveller anymore. (It always Fucking Sucked...)

Hot evergreen RPG properties like Conan, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings, are all tied to game systems that Fucking Suck.

(Except for AiME - because people love their 5e compatibility...)

There is Savage Worlds. But it Fucking Sucks.

Steve Jackson Games? Dungeon Fantasy and TFT releases would have gone over like gangbusters... In 1989. Done for the old fans, not getting any new fans = Fucking Sucks.

Without exception* every single viable RPG property from the 80's to mid 90's that could contend for the #2 spot behind D&D have all been mis-managed straight into utter and complete Mega Fucking Sucktitude.

And no OSR game has achieved sufficient popularity to rise above the noise to even break into Baizuo's peripheral vision...

Honestly, given their solid market position as a perennial #2 since 4e came out; it seems that Baizuo will have to hit a few more own goals before another competitor even has a chance to get in the game.



*(Unless you live in Japan, which means that if you are not playing either Call of Culthulu or Sword World; your favorite game Fucking Sucks.)

PF2 is seeing a good amount of play in my little circle. I don't have any "official" information, but all of the books being on the Humble Bundle for pennies on the dollar is not a good sign. Its got to be a disappointment for them.

And thats kind of a shame because the strengths of the system very much favor battlemats or VTT, and theres a lot more VTT going on now for obvious reasons.

Personally, I do like the system but other than the new Bestiary the rulebooks they've released since have been mostly a waste. I'm really not a fan of the adventure paths and wouldn't have bought the new law enforcement one really no matter what was in it. I don't see how these multi part, second rate novella type adventures are very competitive with what else is out there.

I've run both games for decent sized campaigns, and see Starfinder as something of a stepping stone into what they came up with for PF2. Similar, sharply scaling system with an emphasis on combat classes vs support classes rather than characters that can do everything if properly munchkinized, with movement/tactics playing a big role. The problem with that is that neither book comes right out and says that, and players assume that they are like previous systems. So they give their Wizard a sword or GPMG and end up not being able to do much with it. "I can't hit anything" is the most common complaint I see.

They did heavily tone down the "Gaming is for All" section of the rulebook into something that is to me pretty reasonable. Other than the first line about a social contract, none of the rest made it into the book. Not that it will change anyone's mind.

Quote from: Jaeger;1142896RuneQuest has a decent system, but Gorlantha always and forever Fucking Sucks.

  There are Mythras and other BRP variants out there that take the mechanics and don't use Glorantha. Why do they "F---ing S---!"?

Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts.

Acing dice in game made my insufferable Babelonian ("Listen up single brain, I only wish to say this once.") even MORE insufferable...

Our Ace pilot (crap, is that the Level thing creeping in?) wasn't at the station, so my asshole Babelonian that OF COURSE was good at EVERYTHING, rolled his MASSIVE d4 to land the rocket.

Needless to say, it exploded multiple times, he set that thing down so well it all-but built a landing platform for him, and he looked around and told everyone "I TOLD YOU I was the best pilot on the crew."

I'm in a Slipstream campaign right now, and running a Deadlands campaign.  I think what you described is Savage World's greatest asset, and its greatest detriment.  A good RPG needs that occasional "against-the-odds" success to make the session memorable.  The "I needed a nat 20..." story gets told over and over, but the "I had a 90% chance to succeed... and I succeeded" stories don't.  So the exploding dice is something that works well for that.

The problem is that the way the game functions, combat becomes more and more dependent on acing.  Unless you run 2 - 3x the party size in mooks (which will burn bennies quickly just based on the mooks acing), most of the enemies will have a toughness so high that you have to wait for the damage die to explode to even have a chance to hurt them.  So, instead of D&D where you slowly whittle hp until the monster finally drops, you hit the monster over and over and do nothing, until the dice explode and the monster drops.  So the process is different, but the feeling ends up the same.  A wasted opportunity, IMHO...

Quote from: Aglondir;1142868Quick search on Amazon shows the publication date as Aug 1, 2019. I played it once and I can't recall a damn thing about it, except 3 actions per round (?) How are things going?

I used to play in Pathfinder Society games weekly, but stopped a few years back.  Still know most of the guys who did (at max, we had a rolling group at 20-30 people at a local game store.  Of them, only a handful are playing PF2.  Most are still playing PF1, or have dropped out totally.  So, anecdotally, I haven't seen anything that would suggest Paizo hit a home run, or even a double...

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922Starfinder plays like some homebrew sci-fi crap bolted onto a modified PF system. Seriously.

Parts of it are interesting, but you really need to have different core mechanics in a system designed around ranged combat relative to one centered around melee. I've only played a couple sessions of Starfinder, but it just felt way too easy to close to melee. It seems like in a sci-fi game, unless you have a really good in-setting excuse like Jedi, that melee should be a risky venture, though potentially high risk/reward.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142922...

I politely disagree with Savage Worlds sucking, ...

Then again, I am playing Rifts with SW, so I guess SW looks good compared to Palladium...

Quote from: LiferGamer;1142930I think Savage Worlds makes for good Rifts....

It is never too late to stop smoking crack.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142968Unlike ethics and morality, 'suck' is relative when dealing with systems.

You publicly admit to using Savage Worlds to Play Rifts. 5 out of 10 gamers agree that you have no moral compass.

Quote from: tenbones;1142963Well *something* didn't suck before PF1/PF2...

Why not just go play that?

I have gotten to the point that no system I run survives without some form of modification.

My Star Wars game is pure a dicepool homebrew system. And the game I started using Honor+Intrigue is also heavily modded.

I can change mechanics to the way I think things should be, and my changes work in actual play at the table. So I do.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142968A good game with good friends will invariably balance out a clunky system.

Truth is Truth though.

Currently playing in a 5e game. One of the group wanted to Gm. It works because our group makes it work. I'll just say that the system could have been made smoother and leave it at that lest I be accused of D&D bashing.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143021There are Mythras and other BRP variants out there that take the mechanics and don't use Glorantha. Why do they "F---ing S---!"?

This is easy.

The damage was already done by Chaosium's stubborn insistence over 3 decades that Gorlantha is actually a good setting. And not one of the variants has a setting that engages people to give their system a try. This is of course much easier said than done.

Also, the Mythras designers need to answer their damn phones. Because 1994 called it wants its absurd crunch levels back. So it Fucking Sucks.


FYI, If any of you out there are still at a loss wondering why your favorite system Fucking Sucks? Do not despair!

Uncle Jaeger is here all week to answer your pleas for help, and drop wisdom speaking real truth to power on why the Made of Fail RPG you are currently running Fucking Sucks.

I guess I have a crack habit then because I also like Savage Rifts. I find the Palladium system clunky and annoying as hell though the earlier books are a good read.