Conan, we've gone down the amazon sales rank route a propos Exalted, and I had to learn that those figures are updated hourly and oscillate wildly. One night Exalted was at #19000, the next day it was at #80000.

The figures were in answer to everyone who was interpreting th op to be saying that True20 was uncesessful, even thoiugh it wasn't.

To respond to the real question at hand, lets compare True20 to its cousin Mutants and Masterminds. M&M is very sucessful because it has managed to establish itself as the definative supers RPG. Before M&M there was no clear definative supers RPG. The marvel games would have provided heavy competition, but had been out of print for a while. M&M beat out Silver Age Sentinels, and contributed to GoO going under (there were other larger factors too). Wizards failed to release their own supers game. M&M beat out HERO because it has the same versatility with less of the complexity. So M&M had some fairly weak competitors and was able to come out on top of the supers RPG heap.

True20 on the other hand is in direct competition with universal rpgs including industry giants like d20 and GURPS it has little chance of competing with. Also the sheer number of generic systems out there is staggering, so they have more competitors than M&M. Finally for whatever reason True20 never seemed to get into book stores like barnes and Noble while Mutants and Masterminds did, giving it better visibility and distribution.

I agree with ConanMK and Tyberius.  Most people who are playing the big D20 games are mostly happy with the ruleset (why, I have no idea, there's no accounting for taste:D ).  They are also not necessarily looking to run games in settings outside of high fantasy.  Those who are really motivated to look for a truly generic system will probably tend to move away from D20 altogether, considering that the D20 system works best when the classes are structured around the setting.  

However, there is probably a core group who like the D20 class and level structure but want it much more open and for them True20 hits the sweet spot.  I just think there numbers aren't super high.

Quote from: AkrasiaIs True20 really 'not popular'?
:confused:

Right, that was my point earlier. From my (albeit subjective) roost, my True 20 books seem to do a little better than my usual fare. Given that my usual fare is alternate d20 historical fantasy tweaks (Legends of Excalibur, Legends of the Samurai etc) and d20 Modern (Blood and Guts, Blood and Fists) you can put that somewhat in perspective.

My True 20 stuff is strong, but it doesnt blow the doors off our other books.

So from my standpoint, its very strong. Its just not D&D

Quote from: SigmundI'm surprised, cuz we even talked about here some
 at the time.

If it said True20 in the title I wouldn't have even read it. If it crept into another thread I may have just skimmed past it when people started talking about a game I don't play.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckRight, that was my point earlier. From my (albeit subjective) roost, my True 20 books seem to do a little better than my usual fare. Given that my usual fare is alternate d20 historical fantasy tweaks (Legends of Excalibur, Legends of the Samurai etc) and d20 Modern (Blood and Guts, Blood and Fists) you can put that somewhat in perspective.

My True 20 stuff is strong, but it doesnt blow the doors off our other books.

So from my standpoint, its very strong. Its just not D&D

Interesting perspective.

Which brings up another random thought. The future of D20 modern may have some impact on True20's success. If WotC lets D20M slip away, and True20 continues to be supported, that could work in True20s favor. If WotC Saga-izes D20M, trimming it down into a user friendly lighter version, that could really bite into True20's fanbase.

Addressing a point from earlier in the thread about how the game needs a setting-
For some GMs/players, that's actually a plus.

It's all we use around here these days. We've succesfully used it for pulp, fantasy, science-fantasy, and we're going to use it for a space game some time soon.
It's smooth and simple and easy to use regardless of setting. I don't think it sucks.

 I think this thread shows why its not "more" popular, though- for the most part, people who haven't looked at it think it's too much like D&D, or not enough like D&D. I think that similar thinking bars a lot of games from increasing popularity.

Right, Aos. I actually prefer the lack of setting for True20, it's one of the things that really drew me in. But when talking to Generic Roleplayer #16, he/she will often ask "what's it about" when a new game is mentioned. Hence the lack of real popularity, I think for the game.

Quote from: KazRight, Aos. I actually prefer the lack of setting for True20, it's one of the things that really drew me in. But when talking to Generic Roleplayer #16, he/she will often ask "what's it about" when a new game is mentioned. Hence the lack of real popularity, I think for the game.

I think generic systems in general suffer from this problem, but on the other hand, generic role player #16 isn't really the target audience  for a generic system (ironically enough). Generic systems appeal to a particular niche within the hobby, a rules light  generic system is going to appeal to a niche of that niche. This is the group of people being targeted, people who want a system that is not entangled with a particular setting.

On a related, but slightly tangental topic. I notice a lot of people complaining about how they can't get their group to play this or that system. Someone is bitching across several threads about closed minded gamers.I find this a bit confusing. In my experiance, the GMs drive what gets played.  I tend to say something like, I have this game I'm going to write an adventure for it, play if you like. I never have had trouble getting people to switch. Now, things were different back in the teen age years, but now it is always a matter of what the guy GMing wants to run, and if their is a bone of cntention it is almost always genre realted as opposed to system related.

I haven't had that problem either. We mostly take turns GMing, and though they're long turns, when a GM is done or needs to switch we jump into the next campaign no matter what the system is.

I thought I read somewhere that adventure modules and the like don't really sell. Since most GMs do their own thing. Seems like MOST people would want a generic system with plenty of options for settings (like say, source books for popular movies, comics books or tv shows). At least, it would certainly APPEAR that way.

But the reality is far different. For the most part, even though D&D comes with a "generic" fantasy setting, don't more people use Forgotten Realms or the Eberron setting?

Or maybe I'm overthinking it.

It's hard to tell whether more people use generics or preconstructed settings, because the ones using generics don't leave a market  trail. You can pretty easily tell when more DMGs sell than Player's Guides to Faerun or Eberron Campaign Settings, but without being able to tell exactly who is downloading what or which players are also buying DMGs, who shares what setting books, etc. doing an actual head count is pretty much impossible.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's hard to tell whether more people use generics or preconstructed settings, because the ones using generics don't leave a market  trail. You can pretty easily tell when more DMGs sell than Player's Guides to Faerun or Eberron Campaign Settings, but without being able to tell exactly who is downloading what or which players are also buying DMGs, who shares what setting books, etc. doing an actual head count is pretty much impossible.

Unless you conducted a survey, of course.