Quote from: Skarg;920069An overview of a simple version can be something like: Interesting. Thanks.

Sure. Oh, one more thing: it gives leaders a reason to actually lead! That is, help coordinate people. So it's good to have a good leader who has good awareness and leadership / communication skills, and to have your group train having him lead you. The leader needs to take time to tell people what to do, but that gives them bonuses and options to do what he's telling them to do when otherwise they would be spacing out. So even if your leader is a good fighter himself, it's often better if he's taking the "tell everyone to attack but stay in line formation" option for the turn, because otherwise they may be standing around doing nothing, or attacking irregularly in a way that exposes them. Suddenly skills like tactics, leadership, communications, gesture, and even foreign languages can have very decisive effects on combat.

Basically one minute combat rounds imply Flynning or their modern equivalent. Sometimes that's what you want, sometimes you want something more nasty, brutish and short. I'd have a hard time imagining running, say, The Black Company with one minute combat rounds.

Quote from: Spinachcat;919747I got lucky to play once with Dave Arneson at PacifiCon in the Bay Area. Dave's rule for fighters was that if you killed something, you got a free attack. AKA, cleave. Since that day, I ditched the RAW and gave all 0e Fighters "Kill & Kill Again!" which has been a huge hit with players.

As I use 1D6 for base damage and 1D6 for HDs in my 0e games, its quite common for fighters to chop down 3-4 bandits, gobins or babies in one round which for players is really great fun.

As for the 1 minute round...whatevs. One of the many rules that got tossed out long ago from our table, but we still use 1 turn = 10 minutes = 10 rounds, but since all D&D combat is abstract, its a non-issue for us to abstract how long a round may be. A round is the time it takes to do your thing.

RPG rules are full of weirdness, and you either roll with them or change them. I don't know what's the wonkier rule - the 1 minute D&D rounds or the 1 second GURPS rounds. But in actual play, we pretty much used them the same.

A simple solution I came up with was to make a round 6 seconds and a turn 1 minute. That way the number of rounds in a turn remains the same but things like movement make more sense. I also use a house rule similar to the one you describe from Arneson: if a hit is scored and the minimum damage is enough to kill the target, then you get a free attack. I stole it from Battlesystem, where if a unit's minimum damage destroys a counter, it's a free attack.

Quote from: Daztur;920103Basically one minute combat rounds imply Flynning or their modern equivalent. Sometimes that's what you want, sometimes you want something more nasty, brutish and short. I'd have a hard time imagining running, say, The Black Company with one minute combat rounds.

I was thinking on this, when I was reading the Scarlet Heroes book, and although 1 minute rounds are just too long for a single attack per, (Yes, level 1 heroes aren't very skilled, yet, but they're still meant to be head and shoulders above the average soldier, right?) so it got me thinking.

In SH (Scarlet Heroes, which is based off OD&D, I believe, it uses the same system as Swords and Wizardry, I think?) the four classes have something called a "Fray Die" which players will roll for 'free' damage during a round.  It's to simulate the random swings or arcane blasts that happen during a fight, that get lucky.  Except for the Magic-User, everyone can only do damage to targets of their level in hit dice or lower (So level 1 can only Fray Die other 1HD creatures, level 2 gets to do it to 2HD and lower, so one and so forth.)

A fighter gets a D8, because he's suppose to be the combat machine.  Clerics and Thieves get a D6.  Whereas a Magic-User just gets a D4, but breaks the HD cap, allowing them to hit higher level/HD monsters for damage.

So, what if you house ruled that into the 1 minute rounds, how would that feel?  I'm curious, so I'm going to prepare a single adventure for my home group to see how it goes.  Which I will concede right now, it could go really badly.

AD&D had one-minute combat rounds.  D&D had 6 second combat rounds, which made much more sense. In fact, every game of AD&D I was ever in as player or DM was run as though rounds were 6 seconds.

I like the elegance of 1 minute round -> 10 minute turns.

Quote from: RPGPundit;922397AD&D had one-minute combat rounds.  D&D had 6 second combat rounds, which made much more sense. In fact, every game of AD&D I was ever in as player or DM was run as though rounds were 6 seconds.

Huhn, you are correct (as per Swords and Wizardry and Scarlet Heroes), I wonder how I missed that.  Either way, the Fray Die might be a personal remedy for time issue I have.

Like so many things in D&D, this is largely the result of OD&D being an inconsistent mess of a rulebook.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;923406Like so many things in D&D, this is largely the result of OD&D being an inconsistent mess of a rulebook.

The meaning of turns, rounds, and movement rates seemed straightforward when I read the rules.

• Underworld Turn = 2 moves at a normal movement rate or 1 move at a cautious movement rate.
• Movement rates are measured in inches which are 10 feet to the inch in the underworld and 10 yards to the inch in the wilderness.
• Reading Chainmail clarifies that movement for Light Foot = 12", Heavy Foot = 9", and Armored Foot = 6".
• The movement rate for flight or rout is doubled, so Light Foot move 24" per move.
• There are 10 combat rounds in a turn, ergo a combat round is 1 minute - which always seemed too long to me, but that is what the rules said.
• I presumed the slow underworld movement was a justification for the chance for spotting secret doors and traps by assuming movement is slow and cautious and the explorers are observant.
• I presumed the slow underworld movement was also intended to justify or create the need (for game reasons) for resource management and tracking of torches and oil expended for light sources.

If I were to change things, a 2 minute turn would make more sense for the outdoor movement rate as that would mean that one normal move would cover 12"/9"/6" respectively. Which, for 2 moves per turn, is a rate of 120 yds/90 yds/60 yds per move or per minute which works out quite close to a rate of 4mph/3mph/2mph for foot speeds. (More accurately, 4 mph = 117 yds/minute, 3 mph = 88 yds/minute, and 2 mph = 59 yds/minute.)

LOL! When I was 10-12 and tried several times to make any kind of sense or game out of Whitebox D&D (without having Chainmail, but having played with but not owned the later D&D editions), I had already learned the rules to several wargames (e.g. Midway, Alesia, Squad Leader) and The Fantasy Trip, which are actually complete and logically consistent and make sense once you focus enough attention and patience to learn the terms. The most opaque rules I had seen before 0D&D were the rules for War At Sea, which is actually not very complex for a wargame, but the writing is weird and hard to learn unless you already know the game. Whitebox D&D seems to have both that same problem to a greater degree (i.e. the writers are very familiar with what they're trying to say, but are awful at explaining it to new people who have no clue) AND only present a start to a complete system with peculiar details included and omitted, and the assumption that players will get creative and make up what's not said. Coming from TFT, where there are very concise well-explained rules that do make sense, it seemed amazingly (almost unbelievably) crazy. I love the line in the linked article above:

QuoteThat way they can fully appreciate the archaeological reconstruction of the rulebooks necessary to actually play this game.

Yep. I did not have access to whatever artifacts, lore, terminology or miniatures wargame context to make 0D&D more than seem like a perverse joke or weird nostalgia collector's item project.

Quote from: Bren;923417The meaning of turns, rounds, and movement rates seemed straightforward when I read the rules.

• Underworld Turn = 2 moves at a normal movement rate or 1 move at a cautious movement rate.
• Movement rates are measured in inches which are 10 feet to the inch in the underworld and 10 yards to the inch in the wilderness.
• Reading Chainmail clarifies that movement for Light Foot = 12", Heavy Foot = 9", and Armored Foot = 6".
• The movement rate for flight or rout is doubled, so Light Foot move 24" per move.
• There are 10 combat rounds in a turn, ergo a combat round is 1 minute - which always seemed too long to me, but that is what the rules said.
• I presumed the slow underworld movement was a justification for the chance for spotting secret doors and traps by assuming movement is slow and cautious and the explorers are observant.
• I presumed the slow underworld movement was also intended to justify or create the need (for game reasons) for resource management and tracking of torches and oil expended for light sources.

I'm always fascinated by the different ways people interpret these books. I'm curious where you found a "cautious movement rate" in the books. Also surprised you needed Chainmail to clarify the Light/Heavyt/Armd. movement, which always seemed clear to me from pg. 15 of M&M. (But I never really understood why Gygax decided to list movement rates for full turns, but then split the turn into two moves. What was the intended function of having two moves per turn with each move equal to half your movement rate?)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;923487I'm always fascinated by the different ways people interpret these books. I'm curious where you found a "cautious movement rate" in the books.

I may be misremembering where the notion of "cautious movement" came from. Rather than the little brown books it might have been a supplement or an issue of The Strategic Review or even a house ruling. I don't have a searchable copy of the rules and I can't say that I'm curious enough to re-read the rules or various supplements to see exactly where "cautious movement rate" came from.

QuoteAlso surprised you needed Chainmail to clarify the Light/Heavyt/Armd. movement, which always seemed clear to me from pg. 15 of M&M.

When I read this from your article

QuoteMaking this even more confusing is the phrase "120 feet for a fully-armored character". The phrase "fully-armored" means absolutely nothing in the context of the rules..."

That did not seem to support your having a clear understanding of the movement rates simply from the D&D rules. Fully armored refers to the Armored Foot movement rate of 6". The 120 feet comes from making two 6" moves in a turn at the underworld scale of 10 feet per inch.

QuoteBut I never really understood why Gygax decided to list movement rates for full turns, but then split the turn into two moves. What was the intended function of having two moves per turn with each move equal to half your movement rate?

I don't think movement was half one's movement rate. But off the top of my head, I assume two moves was to facilitate partial movement and attack as well as well as split move and fire for certain troop types e.g. horse archers such as the Parthians, Byzantines, and Mongols. In addition, Elven Archers on foot have the ability both in Chainmail and in the entry for elves in Volumen 2 for split move and fire.

So, hit points, healing, and armor class are good, but a 1 minute round isn't?

A total lack of actual wounds is good?
No mitigation for damage through armor is good?
Abstracted healing of damage is good?

Abstraction of a combat round is bad?

You all just kinda ran out of shit to bitch about, haven't you?
Just change the scale and play the fucking game.

Quote from: Bloodwolf;924063You all just kinda ran out of shit to bitch about, haven't you?

Not hardly. But you are welcome to start a thread about one of those other things you mentioned and we can bitch about that for a while.