Is it possible for a member of the good folk, horrible chaos horrors though they be, to attain redemption (in rare cases) in you guys' conception of a medieval-authentic game? From a reading of Pundit's own medieval-authentic milieu, one would reasonably think "hell no!"

However, recently I read Paracelsus's  Ex Libro de Nymphis, Sylvanis, Pygmaeis, Salamandris et Gigantibus, etc which made me reconsider how I treat them, albeit only slightly in the most rare of cases because chaos elves are still cool. Paracelsus tells us of the nymphs and Sylvan beings that they may acquire immortal souls through Holy Matrimony with Adamite humanity. This fits well with many bits of folklore and with various fairy tales.

Of course in Dark Albion or the like, the odds of getting an elf or other being of the Twilight Realm to agree to Lawful marriage within the Church may be like rolling a 100 on a d100 roll. This is presuming Matrimony has a similar sacramental value in the Church of Sol Invictus or whatever. Salvation if doesn't exist as such could be reworked as "unity with the God of Law" or some such thing.

There was a really good story in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction that delt with a fairy attaining salvation through divine intervention.  I don't remember enough about it now, the title, the author, the details.  I know it involved the sculptor working on a cathedral and his landlady/mistress.  The priest, didn't believe such things were possible of course but with God all things are possible.

Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 09:16:28 PM

However, recently I read Paracelsus's  Ex Libro de Nymphis, Sylvanis, Pygmaeis, Salamandris et Gigantibus, etc which made me reconsider how I treat them, albeit only slightly in the most rare of cases because chaos elves are still cool. Paracelsus tells us of the nymphs and Sylvan beings that they may acquire immortal souls through Holy Matrimony with Adamite humanity. This fits well with many bits of folklore and with various fairy tales.

   I believe this inspired the 19th century novel Undine, and it was in response to that and the whole concept of 'salvation through matrimony' that Hans Christian Andersen wrote "The Little Mermaid."

There are a lot of years that would fall into "authentic medieval" as well as a variety of cultures and variants of elves.  As such, there's going to be a variety of "correct" answers.  This one is mine.

In doing my own research for my fantasy setting into Germanic and Norse mythology, elfs (yes, that's correct in this context; elves is a Tolkien invention) were magical creatures in so far as they were made up of magic.  Magic is inherently heretical in the Bible and to Catholic dogma. 

To gain salvation, you would have to forsake magic completely and for an elf to do so would be a complete annihilation of self.  Assuming an elf would go ahead and do so would mean being nothing more than a fragment of a soul.  That soul fragment can then be redeemed and through a direct miracle could be reconstituted into an individual. 

Quote from: BadApple on October 31, 2023, 08:33:48 AM
There are a lot of years that would fall into "authentic medieval" as well as a variety of cultures and variants of elves.  As such, there's going to be a variety of "correct" answers.  This one is mine.

In doing my own research for my fantasy setting into Germanic and Norse mythology, elfs (yes, that's correct in this context; elves is a Tolkien invention) were magical creatures in so far as they were made up of magic.  Magic is inherently heretical in the Bible and to Catholic dogma. 

  "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."--Galadriel, The Lord of the Rings.

   Tolkien knew what he was about. 'Magic' in his stories is largely distinguished between natural but beyond-human gifts of the Ainur, Elves, and others, and those humans who share some of their ancestry, and corrupt usage of Morgoth's power and control of wayward spirits. The former is perfectly legitimate for its legitimate possessors in Catholic dogma; the latter is to be shunned.

   Could you source the 'made up of magic' bit? I always got the impression that 'magic as a substance' was a product of 19th/20th-century speculation.

   The greater difficulty with the salvation of elvenkind is rooted in the Patristic maxim of "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed," and Christ took on the nature of men, not of elves. Elves would have to be or become fundamentally human in order to participate in that redemption, and some echo or distortion of this would seem to be what Paracelsus was getting at. Tolkien gets around it to some degree by having elves avoid being raised to the supernatural order altogether (this is what the "Gift of Death" is getting at, IMO) and leaving their fate post-end of the world a mystery.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 31, 2023, 10:57:55 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 31, 2023, 08:33:48 AM
There are a lot of years that would fall into "authentic medieval" as well as a variety of cultures and variants of elves.  As such, there's going to be a variety of "correct" answers.  This one is mine.

In doing my own research for my fantasy setting into Germanic and Norse mythology, elfs (yes, that's correct in this context; elves is a Tolkien invention) were magical creatures in so far as they were made up of magic.  Magic is inherently heretical in the Bible and to Catholic dogma. 

  "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."--Galadriel, The Lord of the Rings.

   Tolkien knew what he was about. 'Magic' in his stories is largely distinguished between natural but beyond-human gifts of the Ainur, Elves, and others, and those humans who share some of their ancestry, and corrupt usage of Morgoth's power and control of wayward spirits. The former is perfectly legitimate for its legitimate possessors in Catholic dogma; the latter is to be shunned.

   Could you source the 'made up of magic' bit? I always got the impression that 'magic as a substance' was a product of 19th/20th-century speculation.

   The greater difficulty with the salvation of elvenkind is rooted in the Patristic maxim of "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed," and Christ took on the nature of men, not of elves. Elves would have to be or become fundamentally human in order to participate in that redemption, and some echo or distortion of this would seem to be what Paracelsus was getting at. Tolkien gets around it to some degree by having elves avoid being raised to the supernatural order altogether (this is what the "Gift of Death" is getting at, IMO) and leaving their fate post-end of the world a mystery.

I wish I could give you a clear answer on this.  I inferred it from what I was reading rather than having it spelled out.

20 years ago I got into an autistic deep dive into Norse and Germanic mythology for my world building.  What I found is a) there's little left of the pre-viking Norse and Germanic documents and b) what is left is deeply debated on how to interpret it.  What is left is viewed through Scandinavian writings of later periods in the middle ages, particularly the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda.  The answer I gave is my interpretations of what I read.  Elfs (and by extension some other supernatural creatures) seem to be ether the results of magic and spells or anthropomorphic magic. (I like the term elves and I usually use that except when there is a deep examination of old mythology like this thread.)  Magic from this mythology seems to be a catch all explanation for anything that the rational ancient Scandinavian couldn't explain; magic is everything from why barley grows to divination and visions to more outright reality warping events.  I never came across the idea that magic was a substance but rather a form of power like heat but there's never a clear definition given.  At times it seemed that magic is the unseen motivational force for things, a creation force, and at times it seemed a term referring to skills and techniques for manipulating things outside of the natural order.  The creation myth is trippy when you try to grasp it as an actual belief system that a people actually had. Again, this may be just me trying to wrap my head around concepts that aren't well explained in the books I read.

All in all, you're hitting a lot of the same notes I am with a slightly different perspective.  All of this hints at the conflict of beliefs between the pre-Christian myths and the dogma that came with the missionaries from Rome.  I think that Tolkien came across a lot of the same stuff I did when writing (him being quite a bit more educated in it) but used it in a different way than I did. 

The Bible has several statements saying that various forms of divination, magic, and witchcraft are a sin.  (Many parts of the Bible are a bit cryptic, including what parts of supernatural are acceptable and those that are evil.)  The Bible has no neutral supernatural creatures, they are either various forms of angels or they are demons.  Now overlay this with the Germanic/Norse/Celtic belief in supernatural and you get a weird mix incompatible views on magic and power.

QuoteThe greater difficulty with the salvation of elvenkind is rooted in the Patristic maxim of "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed," and Christ took on the nature of men, not of elves. Elves would have to be or become fundamentally human in order to participate in that redemption, and some echo or distortion of this would seem to be what Paracelsus was getting at. Tolkien gets around it to some degree by having elves avoid being raised to the supernatural order altogether (this is what the "Gift of Death" is getting at, IMO) and leaving their fate post-end of the world a mystery.

I think Dispute of Finrod and Andreth shows quite clear solution. Humans in Catholic anthropology are crown of Creation. As Greek fathers would say - we announce Divine to Creation (thats why whole Creation falls with Adam). In Tolkien mythology it's clearly changed - there are aspect that cannot be agreed with Valars and Elves taking some part of this role for themselves. Valars clearly govern Arda, not first humans, and it;s malevelonce of Melkor that taint Arda, not sin of first humans. But within Tolkien realm humans are still key to link Arda with Divine realm and therefore restore what Morgoth did. And as Elves are tied to Arda without abilitiy to leave - and when humans were cursed by mortality after abandoning their holy duties - that's why God-Human Messiah is necessary to re-estabilish link and by saving Mankind also save whole World (and in this moment Tolkien and Christianity are again in line). So as Messiah shall restored mankind to their original form, humans will restore Arda - and with Arda their firstborn brethren. (Now the weird links to Jacob/Esau story are in place).

Quote from: BadApple on October 31, 2023, 12:32:39 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 31, 2023, 10:57:55 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 31, 2023, 08:33:48 AM
There are a lot of years that would fall into "authentic medieval" as well as a variety of cultures and variants of elves.  As such, there's going to be a variety of "correct" answers.  This one is mine.

In doing my own research for my fantasy setting into Germanic and Norse mythology, elfs (yes, that's correct in this context; elves is a Tolkien invention) were magical creatures in so far as they were made up of magic.  Magic is inherently heretical in the Bible and to Catholic dogma. 

  "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."--Galadriel, The Lord of the Rings.

   Tolkien knew what he was about. 'Magic' in his stories is largely distinguished between natural but beyond-human gifts of the Ainur, Elves, and others, and those humans who share some of their ancestry, and corrupt usage of Morgoth's power and control of wayward spirits. The former is perfectly legitimate for its legitimate possessors in Catholic dogma; the latter is to be shunned.

   Could you source the 'made up of magic' bit? I always got the impression that 'magic as a substance' was a product of 19th/20th-century speculation.

   The greater difficulty with the salvation of elvenkind is rooted in the Patristic maxim of "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed," and Christ took on the nature of men, not of elves. Elves would have to be or become fundamentally human in order to participate in that redemption, and some echo or distortion of this would seem to be what Paracelsus was getting at. Tolkien gets around it to some degree by having elves avoid being raised to the supernatural order altogether (this is what the "Gift of Death" is getting at, IMO) and leaving their fate post-end of the world a mystery.

I wish I could give you a clear answer on this.  I inferred it from what I was reading rather than having it spelled out.

20 years ago I got into an autistic deep dive into Norse and Germanic mythology for my world building.  What I found is a) there's little left of the pre-viking Norse and Germanic documents and b) what is left is deeply debated on how to interpret it.  What is left is viewed through Scandinavian writings of later periods in the middle ages, particularly the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda.  The answer I gave is my interpretations of what I read.  Elfs (and by extension some other supernatural creatures) seem to be ether the results of magic and spells or anthropomorphic magic. (I like the term elves and I usually use that except when there is a deep examination of old mythology like this thread.)  Magic from this mythology seems to be a catch all explanation for anything that the rational ancient Scandinavian couldn't explain; magic is everything from why barley grows to divination and visions to more outright reality warping events.  I never came across the idea that magic was a substance but rather a form of power like heat but there's never a clear definition given.  At times it seemed that magic is the unseen motivational force for things, a creation force, and at times it seemed a term referring to skills and techniques for manipulating things outside of the natural order.  The creation myth is trippy when you try to grasp it as an actual belief system that a people actually had. Again, this may be just me trying to wrap my head around concepts that aren't well explained in the books I read.

All in all, you're hitting a lot of the same notes I am with a slightly different perspective.  All of this hints at the conflict of beliefs between the pre-Christian myths and the dogma that came with the missionaries from Rome.  I think that Tolkien came across a lot of the same stuff I did when writing (him being quite a bit more educated in it) but used it in a different way than I did. 

The Bible has several statements saying that various forms of divination, magic, and witchcraft are a sin.  (Many parts of the Bible are a bit cryptic, including what parts of supernatural are acceptable and those that are evil.)  The Bible has no neutral supernatural creatures, they are either various forms of angels or they are demons.  Now overlay this with the Germanic/Norse/Celtic belief in supernatural and you get a weird mix incompatible views on magic and power.

Also, unlike Tolkien's dwarves, the dwarfs of Germanic folklore and the Nordic sagas are extremely magical, but there is no indication that dwarfs are in any way inherently wicked or evil. There are even some trolls that can be considered more or less good, although they are quite rare.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 12, 2023, 10:42:30 AM

QuoteThe greater difficulty with the salvation of elvenkind is rooted in the Patristic maxim of "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed," and Christ took on the nature of men, not of elves. Elves would have to be or become fundamentally human in order to participate in that redemption, and some echo or distortion of this would seem to be what Paracelsus was getting at. Tolkien gets around it to some degree by having elves avoid being raised to the supernatural order altogether (this is what the "Gift of Death" is getting at, IMO) and leaving their fate post-end of the world a mystery.

I think Dispute of Finrod and Andreth shows quite clear solution. Humans in Catholic anthropology are crown of Creation. As Greek fathers would say - we announce Divine to Creation (thats why whole Creation falls with Adam). In Tolkien mythology it's clearly changed - there are aspect that cannot be agreed with Valars and Elves taking some part of this role for themselves. Valars clearly govern Arda, not first humans, and it;s malevelonce of Melkor that taint Arda, not sin of first humans. But within Tolkien realm humans are still key to link Arda with Divine realm and therefore restore what Morgoth did. And as Elves are tied to Arda without abilitiy to leave - and when humans were cursed by mortality after abandoning their holy duties - that's why God-Human Messiah is necessary to re-estabilish link and by saving Mankind also save whole World (and in this moment Tolkien and Christianity are again in line). So as Messiah shall restored mankind to their original form, humans will restore Arda - and with Arda their firstborn brethren. (Now the weird links to Jacob/Esau story are in place).

Exactly, in Christianity, all of Creation has fallen with mankind, but gets redeemed. As natural beings, elves should, I think, be included in this redemption. The main problem is probably that elves lack an immortal soul.

Incorrect Tolkien elves had immortal soul but it's tied to Arda way more strictly than humans. They cannot left Circles of World unless Eru's grace itself turn them into Humans like in case of Luthien Tinuvel and Arwen Undomiel. But their souls are immortal - they do not perish with body but either are re-embodied in Valinor, spend time on penitence in Mandos Halls or turn well in British folklore faerie, vengeful mad unembodied wraiths.

Elves believed they may perish with Arda, as they understood that Arda Marred is slowly but inevitably driven to destruction by corruption of Morgoth, but Tolkien quite clearly states it's not the case, and that Iluvatar would not allow his Creation and his Children to be destroyed by Adversary. Elves just cannot see beyond Doom of Arda Marred, as they cannot see beyond nature of world, and Salvation came from beyond it. So all they see in future is inevitable slow doom.