My no-doubt doomed to be unpopular opinions on recruiting your kids to play in your RPG games.
[video=youtube_share;6BCkKsVTEbc]https://youtu.be/6BCkKsVTEbc[/youtube]
I listened to this earlier today and just want to say this...I was 12 when I started playing D&D and I moved to much more complex games almost immediately. The harder the rules, the happier I was. You're 100% correct.
Translation of "RPGs for kids" = "RPGs that appeal to parents which make them feel safe to buy"
The most badass RPG for teens is still RIFTS.
As for playing RPGs with your kids, I don't think its a terrible idea with pre-teens. But teens should game with other teens and be left alone to forge their own gaming nostalgia. Parents should fuck off to play with the other geezers. :)
That said, teens often love playing with adults at conventions and game days. It makes them feel very mature. I have friends who bring their kids to conventions, but mostly let their older kids choose their own events so they play on their own most of the time.
I introduced my son to RPG gaming, he games with me, and he games with his teenage friends as well. There is like zero crossover between our groups. He does enjoy going to conventions with me, however we only play the same games once in a great while. He was in one of my tabletop gaming groups for a time, but not all of my tabletop gaming groups.
Mostly I GM for adults at game shows, but once in awhile I get teenagers and kids that want to play in my convention games. I won't turn them away as I always believe our games should be inclusive, not exclusive.
My Dad used to read Tolkien books to me when I was very young. He never originally had an interest in RPG gaming, however did change his mind though after I got him a copy of Icewind Dale for Christmas one year.
I watched the video, and I only partially agree with you.
You will miss the opportunity to introduce some kids to RPGs, if you are still explaining dice mechanics and situational rules 20 minutes later. I know plenty of adults who feel that way too.
Some people are allergic to complexity. My wife won't play chess, because the different movement rules for the pieces seem dumb to her. She loses interest quickly. She either wants to do something practical and productive with her time, or else watch something funny on TV.
You should check out Lordling from Goblinoid Games.
Me at 10: Can I play this?
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I've always assumed the best game to run for kids will be the game you're most comfortable running. I don't watch Pundit videos (or, Youtube videos in general), so I'm not sure how that matches up with his views.
I think there is definitely something to be said for parents asking themselves why they are trying to get their kids into gaming. I don't think I would have been as intrigued by gaming if the first RPGs I saw as a kid were targeted towards young children. That said, I am also sure the D&D cartoon and the D&D toys, helped initiate some of my early interest.
I wish my father had played D&D with me when I was a kid. Not only would that have given me great memories but, more importantly, it would probably have let me avoid an entire year of being a shit DM. I started playing D&D with the Holmes box without ever having seen anyone play the game. I was the DM (since I owned the game) and I had no idea what I was supposed to do.
I started my kids on gaming when they were 7 years old. I don't care if they play when they get older, I just want them to know the proper way to play if they decide to. I person's best gaming years are between 10 and 18. Might as well make the most use of it while you can.
I play dnd with my kid and a bunch of adults. It has always been proper dnd with the tropes I enjoy. That's what he likes too. He does run some dnd with friends at school but he is more a natural player than GM I think.
I don't see any point in bowdlerised games, certainly not for typical boys. Maybe for girls a less violent game might work. But boys love killling things.
There's certainly value in letting kids play [RPGs] with other kids free from grownup involvement once they hit a certain age. I was 8 when I started playing "D&D" (essentially a freeform game that drew upon concepts in Moldvay Basic) with my friends on the playground. It was great fun, and the fact that I was with my friends definitely factored into how comfortably and eagerly I DM'ed my first adventure a couple weeks later, despite having never really read the rules or owning any polyhedral dice. That said, I think my friends and I would definitely have benefited on some level from playing with someone older who was more experienced at handling the mechanical aspects of the game, and probably would have enjoyed participating in the RP experience together and trying to "beat" the grown-up DM.
I'm about to introduce my 5-year-old son to "Ultra-Basic" B/X D&D. He already "loves killing things" (as S'mon aptly notes :D ) when we play with WWII or fantasy miniatures on the tabletop, so I'll basically just be adding simple dice mechanics and basic role-playing concepts to what we're already doing.
Quote from: S'mon;1113322I play dnd with my kid and a bunch of adults. It has always been proper dnd with the tropes I enjoy. That's what he likes too. He does run some dnd with friends at school but he is more a natural player than GM I think.
I don't see any point in bowdlerised games, certainly not for typical boys. Maybe for girls a less violent game might work. But boys love killling things.
Pundit seems to be idealizing where RPGs are a cool thing to do to rebel against one's parents. But given that I'm an avid role-player who plays many different games, I don't think there's any way that my relationship with my son would be that way. RPGs will be a family game for him.
As for games for kids, I find that confusing. I personally started on the D&D Basic Set, which was clearly marketed as being a simpler version of D&D for kids. That's not bowdlerized - it's just simplified. As a pre-teen, my son started out on some more kidsy games - Monster Island (giant kaiju fights) and Faery's Tale (playing troublesome little fairies). But he diversified since then.
Quote from: jhkim;1113371Pundit seems to be idealizing where RPGs are a cool thing to do to rebel against one's parents. But given that I'm an avid role-player who plays many different games, I don't think there's any way that my relationship with my son would be that way. RPGs will be a family game for him.
As for games for kids, I find that confusing. I personally started on the D&D Basic Set, which was clearly marketed as being a simpler version of D&D for kids. That's not bowdlerized - it's just simplified. As a pre-teen, my son started out on some more kidsy games - Monster Island (giant kaiju fights) and Faery's Tale (playing troublesome little fairies). But he diversified since then.
Apart from a bit of rules-free when he was very young, and some Dragon Warriors he didn't like that much, I started my son with Mentzer Classic D&D, that's what he wanted to play. He loved it and we played for years, mostly with a group. He still says 5e D&D is too easy and that he prefers hardcore D&D like BECMI or Swords & Wizardry. :)
I agree Pundit seems to idealise it as a 1980s style youth rebellion thing, but that's not where the world is these days. I think we Gen-Xers were the last to have that as a general part of the culture.
Pretty good video. I can see the merits of his arguments. As extremely tempting as it is to incorporate one's children into their hobby, initiating that is selfish. Better for them to see you play with a group and let them follow through on their curiosity.
I, myself, got into the hobby at 15-16 with AD&D when a buddy of mine showed me a Ravenloft boxed set that was passed down to him.
As for RPGs specifically designed for kids, just bleh. I don't mind different rulesets but the art is just not evocative of excitement and danger at all. That was probably one of the best things about Monster Manuals: seeing all the stuff you can fight and that can kill you.
I started RPGs with D&D B/X back in the 1980's, when I was around 12 years old. I find it a bit odd that the OSR Old School Essentials books get so much praise these days, for supposedly making the B/X rules more clear, when I never thought the original B/X books were particularly difficult for 12 year old me to navigate. I have nothing against the new OSE books, but B/X did a fine job of teaching a generation of kids to play D&D, and I would happily use it today to introduce kids to RPGs.
Quote from: ronwisegamgee;1113418As extremely tempting as it is to incorporate one's children into their hobby, initiating that is selfish.
That seems a very strange statement. Every parent shares their hobbies with their kids; my dad taught me to fix cars, my mom taught me to play chess, my brother taught his kids to hunt, my other brother taught his kids to play the drums, etc. I don't see why gaming, in particular, would be any different from watching football with your kids on Sunday.
Playing DnD with your kids is as old as DnD, in other words if it was good enough for Gygax to do then it is good enough for me.
There's nothing wrong with playing RPGs with your kids as an introduction, but at a certain age, its important for kids to play RPGs with their friends, even if they are playing it "wrong". Sure, they can still play with the geezers, but kids need unstructured time with each other for personal development and RPGing is a great venue for unconsciously developing life skills while just having good safe fun.
Quote from: Razor 007;1113295..Some people are allergic to complexity. ....
Some people even after trying something, are just not interested, and find the activity boring/silly. There is nothing wrong with that.
But I feel that all too often in this hobby there is a failure to recognize the reality that not all people are of equal intelligence.
Quote from: ronwisegamgee;1113418As extremely tempting as it is to incorporate one's children into their hobby, initiating that is selfish. ....
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1113436That seems a very strange statement. Every parent shares their hobbies with their kids; my dad taught me to fix cars, my mom taught me to play chess, my brother taught his kids to hunt, my other brother taught his kids to play the drums, etc. I don't see why gaming, in particular, would be any different from watching football with your kids on Sunday.
I'm with hedge on this. Children need adult guidance. Looking back, I wish my father had made more of an effort to include me in his hobbies when I was younger.
I also agree with this:
Quote from: Spinachcat;1113452There's nothing wrong with playing RPGs with your kids as an introduction, but at a certain age, its important for kids to play RPGs with their friends, ....
I feel it is also important for kids to transition into play with their peer group.
I remember when I was young that you just don't feel like you can quite have real fun with your friends when there are too many adults around.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1113452There's nothing wrong with playing RPGs with your kids as an introduction, but at a certain age, its important for kids to play RPGs with their friends, even if they are playing it "wrong". Sure, they can still play with the geezers, but kids need unstructured time with each other for personal development and RPGing is a great venue for unconsciously developing life skills while just having good safe fun.
Hey, a mature sensible attitude! :D
Yeah, my son was in no way harmed playing RPGs with me, but I did encourage him to play with his peer group. The main result is he sees just what an incredibly good GM I am, but still worthwhile. :D
An aside - from what he tells me, age 12 he has finally achieved that 'unstructured time with each other for personal development' by walking home from school with his friends rather than them take the bus - gives them 45 minutes to actually be themselves and mess about, without adults looking over their shoulder. The lack of unsupervised time is a huge problem for children these days, and school break times (and pre-school start time) are only a partial solution.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113481But I feel that all too often in this hobby there is a failure to recognize the reality that not all people are of equal intelligence.
I certainly get extremely hostile responses on gamer bulletin boards if I mention this. I'll probably get one now. :o
Quote from: S'mon;1113524I certainly get extremely hostile responses on gamer bulletin boards if I mention this. I'll probably get one now. :o
What, you're telling me every single gamer doesn't have a 160 IQ???
Quote from: Jaeger;1113481I feel it is also important for kids to transition into play with their peer group.
I remember when I was young that you just don't feel like you can quite have real fun with your friends when there are too many adults around.
I started playing D&D with my peers when I was 14. When I was 16, I started going into MIT to play, I was actually invited to join the MITSGS by college students after running a game at one of their conventions. I also had a few older gamers play in my games at various times and started participating in The Wild Hunt APA. It's worth pointing out that Peter Aronson was a teenager when his Illusionist class was published.
Of course for the most part, the adults were not the parents of the kids (there was one father who brought his kids in).
Of course I'm not sure teenage participation in a college gaming club would fly today... Or teenagers going to SF conventions by themselves and paying some dude who had a credit card for crash space in his hotel room...
I think at least some of the game tables I've seen at game stores have had both kids and adults. But again, probably in most cases not the parents of the kids.
If the kids are interested, I really don't think it's a problem for kids to do stuff with their parents. How many kids who hunt do so with someone other than their parents?
Frank
Quote from: Brad;1113543What, you're telling me every single gamer doesn't have a 160 IQ???
The Politically Correct response is "Intelligence doesn't exist, you NAZI!!!!!"
Quote from: Spinachcat;1113452There's nothing wrong with playing RPGs with your kids as an introduction, but at a certain age, its important for kids to play RPGs with their friends, even if they are playing it "wrong". Sure, they can still play with the geezers, but kids need unstructured time with each other for personal development and RPGing is a great venue for unconsciously developing life skills while just having good safe fun.
I agree that kids need unstructured time, and RPGs would be fine for that -- but it's not like RPGs *have* to be that unstructured time.
My son is playing RPGs with his peers now in college - but he never had a peer RPG group when he was in grade school. His friends just weren't into tabletop RPGs. For him growing up, RPGs were a thing he did with grownups, and that's fine. He did other things with his peers.
Quote from: S'mon;1113524I certainly get extremely hostile responses on gamer bulletin boards if I mention this. I'll probably get one now. :o
There are boards that do not get hostile responses? Even the Knitting Board has Nazis.
Quote from: S'mon;1113523An aside - from what he tells me, age 12 he has finally achieved that 'unstructured time with each other for personal development' by walking home from school with his friends rather than them take the bus - gives them 45 minutes to actually be themselves and mess about, without adults looking over their shoulder. The lack of unsupervised time is a huge problem for children these days, and school break times (and pre-school start time) are only a partial solution.
I agree with you. It is one of the biggest differences I see between my nephew's life and my own childhood. My nephew goes to school, and then to some kind of structured after-school thing until his parents pick him up. He gets home at 5-5:30 and then has homework to do, then dinner, and often there is not that much free time after dinner (he still goes to bed pretty early).
As a child I got home much earlier, and would have much more time to spend on my own.
As for whether you should introduce your kids to RPGs, of course you should. Just like you would play board games with them, or video games. If it sparks an interest with them, the kid will quickly branch out on his own. And there is value in being able to show them how to interact with other gamers in an RPG. You can teach them what not to do, and why, and they will have better times playing with others their age as a result.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1113317I think there is definitely something to be said for parents asking themselves why they are trying to get their kids into gaming. I don't think I would have been as intrigued by gaming if the first RPGs I saw as a kid were targeted towards young children. That said, I am also sure the D&D cartoon and the D&D toys, helped initiate some of my early interest.
Well, toys and accessory-products are a different thing.