TheRPGSite

I'm really big on the whole community thing with other gamers, overall.

Now, normally, that means being generally positive, building up others, showing enthusiasm...   You get the idea.  This often means that I get a 'nice guy' reputation that I don't entirely deserve.

But at the same time, I get this temptation.  I've seen it in action with other people that have written games.  The temptation, of course, is to sneer at people on the basis of "Oh? And what have you written?" or something similar.  This is, I note, pure idiocy - not least because my track record is comparatively short and insignificant - but it's still there, and occasionally, I fall prey to it just a little.

I despise it in others because I see it in myself.

Yeah, I write these little games.  People play them.  People like them.  But I'm not doing those people a big favor, even when I write those games for free.  Because, in any kind of final analysis, I do it for selfish reasons.

I enjoy the respect that comes from people that have read and played games I've written.  I enjoy having my name recognized in many different circles.  When people tell me that they've gotten a better night of play because of some chunk of advice I've written, I feel skilled and knowledgable.

Which is to say, people pay me for these efforts as it is, from time to time.  And I'm not even making money.

So, my advice, such as it is, is two parts:

Designers, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Gamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDesigners, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Sounds good, but I lost track of which line of stupidity you mean, exactly.

I can't avoid all of them. Lines of stupidity are at the core of most of my best work :)

Quote from: S. John RossSounds good, but I lost track of which line of stupidity you mean, exactly.

The one where you feel the temptation to go "Oh?  And what have you written?" or something similar.

Not sure if you've ever felt that one.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe one where you feel the temptation to go "Oh?  And what have you written?" or something similar.

Not sure if you've ever felt that one.

Only around veteran Wolfies, but then it's okay; I'm just being territorial. :)

Oh man, I don't think I could ever stop from privately, and maybe occasionally publicly, slamming designers who play the "What have you published?" card.

I can understand a gamer who hates D&D. Gamers can despise classes, levels, and whatever, and I'm completely cool with that. To me, gamers are allowed to make up judgments on purely emotional, gut reaction grounds.

But designers, at least people who want to fly that professional designer flag, should have *reasons* why they do things. Design is never about randomly throwing stuff together because it feels good. It's about the conscious decision to choose an effect and to pursue that effect through design choices.

IME, designers who go on and on about their credits have nothing left to fall back upon.

Quote from: mearlsIME, designers who go on and on about their credits have nothing left to fall back upon.

Oh yeah? OH YEAH? What stick figures have YOU drawn, then?




[that showed him]

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm really big on the whole community thing with other gamers, overall.

Now, normally, that means being generally positive, building up others, showing enthusiasm...   You get the idea.  This often means that I get a 'nice guy' reputation that I don't entirely deserve.

But at the same time, I get this temptation.  I've seen it in action with other people that have written games.  The temptation, of course, is to sneer at people on the basis of "Oh? And what have you written?" or something similar.  This is, I note, pure idiocy - not least because my track record is comparatively short and insignificant - but it's still there, and occasionally, I fall prey to it just a little.

I despise it in others because I see it in myself.

Yeah, I write these little games.  People play them.  People like them.  But I'm not doing those people a big favor, even when I write those games for free.  Because, in any kind of final analysis, I do it for selfish reasons.

I enjoy the respect that comes from people that have read and played games I've written.  I enjoy having my name recognized in many different circles.  When people tell me that they've gotten a better night of play because of some chunk of advice I've written, I feel skilled and knowledgable.

The problem for me, at least, comes in from the fact that there are plenty who will hate you for writing it also. That is to say, for all the guys (Zach, Mike, and many others not on this board) who give support, there are plenty of others who will give you a lot of negative vibes about your work. It is frustrating because they know something that is very personal to you (your writing) and you know nothing about them. It becaomes easy to say "Oh yeah, well what have you published lately?!?" The worst part is it is just their opinion. I respect thier right to hate my writing but that does not mean they have a right to piss in my cornflakes.

That said, I try very hard not to engage in the mentioned behavior. It is difficult but I think I do a good job of it despite taking even off-handed comments to heart.it is easy to SAY "Oh, it's just another jerk" but very different to really feel it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhich is to say, people pay me for these efforts as it is, from time to time.  And I'm not even making money.

So, my advice, such as it is, is two parts:

Designers, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Gamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

I really wish it worked that way. It would make the world a much happier place.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI respect thier right to hate my writing but that does not mean they have a right to piss in my cornflakes.

Well, yeah. Just as designing a game isn't a ticket to instant and iron-clad universal respect and awe, being a fan doesn't mean you get kid-gloves.

It's always best (sometimes very difficult) just not to engage. When possible, I simply walk away from ugliness. When that isn't something I can manage, though, I will fucking wail on a dipshit if he's asking to be wailed on.

But I won't ask him what he's published. I'll just ask him something sly and clever and sort of subtle, like whether it's usual for a discarded placenta to learn to type.

Quote from: S. John RossWell, yeah. Just as designing a game isn't a ticket to instant and iron-clad universal respect and awe, being a fan doesn't mean you get kid-gloves.

It's always best (sometimes very difficult) just not to engage. When possible, I simply walk away from ugliness. When that isn't something I can manage, though, I will fucking wail on a dipshit if he's asking to be wailed on.

But I won't ask him what he's published. I'll just ask him something sly and clever and sort of subtle, like whether it's usual for a discarded placenta to learn to type.

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that if you have published you get special status. I am a strong believer in "I don't care what you wrote, can you carry an entertaining or informative conversation". Most projects you work on are collaborative anyway (i.e. possibly more than one writer, editor, layout, artists, etc.).

That said though, I do think a writers work is something they should be proud of, whether it is published for sale or for free. There are times when I am really on it for my writing and times when it is not so good. That is why I have an editor. ;)

Bill

Quote from: Levi KornelsenGamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

Hmmm. Yeah. Well, maybe for most folks. There is one designer who comes to mind when you put it that way that I could almost see him posting it that I'm not too liable to forgive.

Then, he's an asswipe in just about every way, so if I forgive him that, I'm sure I'll have plenty of disdain left over. ;)

One thing about playing the designer card, though, is that it's something fans do to designers, and that's annoying.

There have been many occasions where I've weighed in on a topic, just as me, GM-to-GM, mano a mano, dork-wasting-time-online to fellow dork-wasting-time-online, and they will come back at me, out of the blue, with "Oh, mister big-deal game writer graces us with his perfect opinion, I see." That kind of thing, when I had said NOTHING about my work or my background, much less played it as a "card."

It happens a lot, and it's a constant temptation to go under an assumed name to avoid it (which I've tried, on occasion, and it had exactly the affect I thought it would ... which is why I'm constantly tempted to do it some more) :)

S. John, have you experienced the familiarity breeds contempt phenomenon? Wht I mean is when you post regularly, try to treat customers with respect and as equals, you end up becoming "less" in the eyes of customers and thus easier to attack than the average poster. I am not explaining this well. People lose respect for you as a designer; i.e. your games are crap because you will take the time to talk with me/us/a forum.

I have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltWhen I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums.

...My own internal workings go the other way around.  I like buying from people I can actually identify.

So, uh, I believe it, but I don't get it.

Quote from: HinterWeltI have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

That's sorta foreign thinking to me.  If you're going to not buy someone's product, it isn't like it's a U.N. binding resolution or major news.  Unless you're trying to be helpful and mention its for a reason you think they could correct, I don't see why you'd do this.  :confused:

As a gamer, I'll tell you what two big turn-offs are:  a)  the guy whose games have sold 18 copies total and feel that makes him akin to a rock star; and b)  the guy who feels its somehow professional to build himself/his game by tearing into/mocking another designer online.  We have some wonderful designers in this hobby, but somewhat fewer with any sense of professional courtesy. :(

Quote from: HinterWeltI have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

Those people are wacky, but then again it gives you incentive to start building that ivory tower you've always wanted to have. Bah, I'm just making stuff up again, those guys are just wacky. Familiarity breeding contempt usually happens because you've become familiar with a jerk or are a being a jerk yourself.

Sorry, I have add a big Amen to this:

Quote from: Zachary the FirstAs a gamer, I'll tell you what two big turn-offs are: a) the guy whose games have sold 18 copies total and feel that makes him akin to a rock star; and b) the guy who feels its somehow professional to build himself/his game by tearing into/mocking another designer online. We have some wonderful designers in this hobby, but somewhat fewer with any sense of professional courtesy.

Quote from: HinterWeltS. John, have you experienced the familiarity breeds contempt phenomenon?

Oh, I'm familiar with the principle, but acting it would amount to limiting my actions based on a marketing concern, and I simply don't do that kind of thing. :) Plus, I think it's a wash at worst ... The kind of gamers I write for are the kind of gamers who don't fall prey to that kind of thinking. Also, in my opinion, nothing that happens on a Web forum actually matters anywhere else but in the Webforumiverse. Pro or con, it's all drops in the bucket, so that leaves me to pursue the hobby as I like.

Quote from: Zachary The Firsta)  the guy whose games have sold 18 copies total and feel that makes him akin to a rock star

Heh.

Number of copies shouldn't really matter, given the number of different ways of distribution.

In terms of "copies downloaded", I could show you some very large numbers on some my own stuff.  Those numbers mean not a damn thing.

"Actually played" is a whole different bag, and much, much more important to both my ego and to the amount of actual respect I feel like I'm getting.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"Actually played" is a whole different bag, and much, much more important to both my ego and to the amount of actual respect I feel like I'm getting.

Yeah, gameplay is the one and only grail.

Although, as metrics go, I gotta admit that when I look at the list of Risus fan-sites, I feel ... okay, often I just worry that a lot of these people haven't noticed that it's a comedy game, and that when they do notice they'll be mad at me :(

But other times, I'm like "hey, wowsa."

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHeh.

Number of copies shouldn't really matter, given the number of different ways of distribution.

In terms of "copies downloaded", I could show you some very large numbers on some my own stuff.  Those numbers mean not a damn thing.

"Actually played" is a whole different bag, and much, much more important to both my ego and to the amount of actual respect I feel like I'm getting.

I happily concede the point to you. :)

You know I happily spend time in some places trying to help other gamers get their games finished and out--some are friends working on cool things. Some are just people whose game sounds cool. I think my only entitlement is "if I can do this, so can you" but not being published is not as big an issue for me.


Because I know what heck and hell the process of publishing can be as opposed to simply creation.

Whenever you get the urge to say, "Oh, what have you written?" ask the far more important question, "Oh, what do you play?"

Look, all I want is some drooling fanboyz.

Is that so much to ask?

Quote from: JimBobOzLook, all I want is some drooling fanboyz.

Is that so much to ask?

If you want I think I can fulfill this duty for you. I promise to mindlessly agree with your statements and proclaim your elite stature. That is until some random point where I will publicly and venomously slander your image and question your parentage.

The love/hate cycle of a true fanboy is a vicious one.

Look at the indie games thread. That'll give you all the stuff you need.

Quote from: JamesVIf you want I think I can fulfill this duty for you. I promise to mindlessly agree with your statements and proclaim your elite stature. That is until some random point where I will publicly and venomously slander your image and question your parentage.

The love/hate cycle of a true fanboy is a vicious one.

Awesome! Will you be a drooling fanboy of d4-d4, or of Cheetoism? They're my only (rpg) creations of note.

Both are works of absolute genuis you gin-soaked, progeny of facist pigherders!

Excellent.

One thing I expect of a droolingfanboyz is that whenever someone asks on rpg.net for a game that does so-and-so, you should hop in with "d4-d4!" If it's entirely inappropriate, that's even better!

Also, you must argue with other droolingfanboyz about the correct interpretation of the rules. If someone ever replies, "well, if the GM uses their common sense -" then you say that "only broken rules systems need common sense, this system is perfect."

And as for Cheetoism, it's extremely effective for derailing theory threads. Whenever a word of more than three syllables appears, say, "but your theory does not mention cheetos, and therefore suxxorz."

And I am not gin-soaked, I am beer-soaked. Victoria Bitter.

Okay, devil's advocate time (Levi knows me, and must have been expecting this ... not because I'm strongly "What have you written?" but because I'm strongly devil's advocate).

Real world experience is a better indicator of how the real world will behave than any model constructed from first principles.  When someone starts touting a model of how design and marketing must work I want to know whether the model has been tested against the real world.

If Ted the Designer, with five games under his belt, says "Creating unsubstantiated buzz before the game is finalized is the best way to boost long-term sales" then I'm going to proceed really carefully.  Do I think he's right?  No.  But I know that his model has, at the least, not been disproven by his own personal experience.  The model has survived at least five tests intact.

If Joe Schmo, with zero games designed, says "Creating unsubstantiated buzz before the game is finalized is the best way to boost long-term sales" then I'm simply not going to lend that the same credence.  It is not a model that he has tested through his own personal experience.  The model has not survived any tests.

Now, please note:  Not having been tested doesn't mean a model is wrong.  It can totally be right!  But it's swimming out there in a great big ocean of ideas, many of which are right, many of which are subtly wrong, and many (many!) of which are so egregiously wrong that they would be disproven the very first time somebody tried to test them practically.

The ideas of someone with practical experience are not swimming in that same ocean.  They are swiming in a nice, protected little cove where only the fishies that are right, and the fishies that are subtly wrong, get to swim.  The stupid-ass fish with twenty-seven fins and gills made of string cheese don't get to swim in those waters.  If my first priority is not to waste my time catching and releasing lots of mutant fish, I'm pretty naturally going to prefer to fish in those waters.

Summary:  "Oh yeah!  What have you written?" is a stupid-ass comment to make, on most every conceivable level.  At the same time, I'm going to lend more credence and authority to people who have tested their ideas against reality.  Paradoxical, that.

Quote from: TonyLBLevi knows me, and must have been expecting this ... not because I'm strongly "What have you written?" but because I'm strongly devil's advocate.

Yup.

I likes me some dissension.  It means people are actually thinking.  And I was nodding along with that, so you've got a point there.  

I have to say, though, that I think there are people whose observations, while not personally backed up, tend to be presented with enough thought and detail that I listen fairly careful-like.

Zachary, on these boards, for example.

Agreed.  There are also people whose responses, though not backed up, so clearly overlook massive elements of reality that I immediately say to myself "This is not an opinion that would survive contact with the real world."

Now some of those people are, in fact, folks who have formed these opinions through steadfast denial of their own real-life experiences.  Folks who really ought to know better.

But in my (admittedly biased) experience, a lot of those people are able to form those opinions only because they have assiduously avoided having the experiences that would teach them to know better.

To analogize to a slightly different issue:  I have, for instance, entertained more than a few people on my game forum who want to tell me, based on first principles, how the game I designed will work.  They often have theories about what will happen that cannot (and, in the long term, do not) survive a session of actually playing the game with real people.  Those people often get (though not from me, because I love torturing them) the response of "Did this happen in actual play?  What have you actually played?" which (to my mind) parallels the question "Was this theory of writing games formed by actually writing a game?  What have you actually written?"

Now if you make the effort (as I do ... see "love to torture", above) you can make a counter-argument on first principles.  But, often, it's hard to get past the initial feeling that the other guy should just know that what they're saying is wrong.  It's like someone explaining Xeno's paradox and then saying "Go ahead!  Shoot me with that high-powered rifle!  I've proven that the bullet will never reach me."  You can bust out calculus and save the poor sap from painful experience by arguing from first principles, but you're always going to be shaking your head thinking "Man ... have you ever payed attention to reality?  'Bullet wouldn't reach you', I ought just pull the trigger rizzin-frazzin ...."

Quote from: TonyLBBut, often, it's hard to get past the initial feeling that the other guy should just know that what they're saying is wrong.  It's like someone explaining Xeno's paradox and then saying "Go ahead!  Shoot me with that high-powered rifle!  I've proven that the bullet will never reach me."  You can bust out calculus and save the poor sap from painful experience by arguing from first principles, but you're always going to be shaking your head thinking "Man ... have you ever payed attention to reality?  'Bullet wouldn't reach you', I ought just pull the trigger rizzin-frazzin ...."

*Grin*

Yes.  I have argued with such.

But I think it is often worth at least trying to get past that first feeling.  People will suprise me, often enough.

Not always, of course; not even close, but often enough.

*Sigh*

I think we're too close to agreement to get a good scrap out of this one.

We could start a thread on Competition and player responsibilities to one another instead, though - I'm sure we could entertain ourselves for hours tussling over that one.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe could start a thread on Competition and player responsibilities to one another instead, though - I'm sure we could entertain ourselves for hours tussling over that one.

Oh, you tease.  You know we're never going to actually have that discussion.

But yeah, I think we're largely in agreement.  I think it's best to get past the "They're wrong, I know they're wrong!" instincts as well ... so long as you do it in a way that won't have you tearing your hair out.

Honestly, as with many things that would otherwise raise your blood-pressure, the best answer is often to just quietly walk away from the keyboard.