I'm really big on the whole community thing with other gamers, overall.

Now, normally, that means being generally positive, building up others, showing enthusiasm...   You get the idea.  This often means that I get a 'nice guy' reputation that I don't entirely deserve.

But at the same time, I get this temptation.  I've seen it in action with other people that have written games.  The temptation, of course, is to sneer at people on the basis of "Oh? And what have you written?" or something similar.  This is, I note, pure idiocy - not least because my track record is comparatively short and insignificant - but it's still there, and occasionally, I fall prey to it just a little.

I despise it in others because I see it in myself.

Yeah, I write these little games.  People play them.  People like them.  But I'm not doing those people a big favor, even when I write those games for free.  Because, in any kind of final analysis, I do it for selfish reasons.

I enjoy the respect that comes from people that have read and played games I've written.  I enjoy having my name recognized in many different circles.  When people tell me that they've gotten a better night of play because of some chunk of advice I've written, I feel skilled and knowledgable.

Which is to say, people pay me for these efforts as it is, from time to time.  And I'm not even making money.

So, my advice, such as it is, is two parts:

Designers, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Gamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDesigners, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Sounds good, but I lost track of which line of stupidity you mean, exactly.

I can't avoid all of them. Lines of stupidity are at the core of most of my best work

Quote from: S. John RossSounds good, but I lost track of which line of stupidity you mean, exactly.

The one where you feel the temptation to go "Oh?  And what have you written?" or something similar.

Not sure if you've ever felt that one.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe one where you feel the temptation to go "Oh?  And what have you written?" or something similar.

Not sure if you've ever felt that one.

Only around veteran Wolfies, but then it's okay; I'm just being territorial.

Oh man, I don't think I could ever stop from privately, and maybe occasionally publicly, slamming designers who play the "What have you published?" card.

I can understand a gamer who hates D&D. Gamers can despise classes, levels, and whatever, and I'm completely cool with that. To me, gamers are allowed to make up judgments on purely emotional, gut reaction grounds.

But designers, at least people who want to fly that professional designer flag, should have *reasons* why they do things. Design is never about randomly throwing stuff together because it feels good. It's about the conscious decision to choose an effect and to pursue that effect through design choices.

IME, designers who go on and on about their credits have nothing left to fall back upon.

Quote from: mearlsIME, designers who go on and on about their credits have nothing left to fall back upon.

Oh yeah? OH YEAH? What stick figures have YOU drawn, then?




[that showed him]

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm really big on the whole community thing with other gamers, overall.

Now, normally, that means being generally positive, building up others, showing enthusiasm...   You get the idea.  This often means that I get a 'nice guy' reputation that I don't entirely deserve.

But at the same time, I get this temptation.  I've seen it in action with other people that have written games.  The temptation, of course, is to sneer at people on the basis of "Oh? And what have you written?" or something similar.  This is, I note, pure idiocy - not least because my track record is comparatively short and insignificant - but it's still there, and occasionally, I fall prey to it just a little.

I despise it in others because I see it in myself.

Yeah, I write these little games.  People play them.  People like them.  But I'm not doing those people a big favor, even when I write those games for free.  Because, in any kind of final analysis, I do it for selfish reasons.

I enjoy the respect that comes from people that have read and played games I've written.  I enjoy having my name recognized in many different circles.  When people tell me that they've gotten a better night of play because of some chunk of advice I've written, I feel skilled and knowledgable.

The problem for me, at least, comes in from the fact that there are plenty who will hate you for writing it also. That is to say, for all the guys (Zach, Mike, and many others not on this board) who give support, there are plenty of others who will give you a lot of negative vibes about your work. It is frustrating because they know something that is very personal to you (your writing) and you know nothing about them. It becaomes easy to say "Oh yeah, well what have you published lately?!?" The worst part is it is just their opinion. I respect thier right to hate my writing but that does not mean they have a right to piss in my cornflakes.

That said, I try very hard not to engage in the mentioned behavior. It is difficult but I think I do a good job of it despite taking even off-handed comments to heart.it is easy to SAY "Oh, it's just another jerk" but very different to really feel it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhich is to say, people pay me for these efforts as it is, from time to time.  And I'm not even making money.

So, my advice, such as it is, is two parts:

Designers, try to avoid this particular line of stupidity.

Gamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

I really wish it worked that way. It would make the world a much happier place.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI respect thier right to hate my writing but that does not mean they have a right to piss in my cornflakes.

Well, yeah. Just as designing a game isn't a ticket to instant and iron-clad universal respect and awe, being a fan doesn't mean you get kid-gloves.

It's always best (sometimes very difficult) just not to engage. When possible, I simply walk away from ugliness. When that isn't something I can manage, though, I will fucking wail on a dipshit if he's asking to be wailed on.

But I won't ask him what he's published. I'll just ask him something sly and clever and sort of subtle, like whether it's usual for a discarded placenta to learn to type.

Quote from: S. John RossWell, yeah. Just as designing a game isn't a ticket to instant and iron-clad universal respect and awe, being a fan doesn't mean you get kid-gloves.

It's always best (sometimes very difficult) just not to engage. When possible, I simply walk away from ugliness. When that isn't something I can manage, though, I will fucking wail on a dipshit if he's asking to be wailed on.

But I won't ask him what he's published. I'll just ask him something sly and clever and sort of subtle, like whether it's usual for a discarded placenta to learn to type.

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that if you have published you get special status. I am a strong believer in "I don't care what you wrote, can you carry an entertaining or informative conversation". Most projects you work on are collaborative anyway (i.e. possibly more than one writer, editor, layout, artists, etc.).

That said though, I do think a writers work is something they should be proud of, whether it is published for sale or for free. There are times when I am really on it for my writing and times when it is not so good. That is why I have an editor.

Bill

Quote from: Levi KornelsenGamers, try not to treat the designers as evil when they fail to avoid it.  They're just expressing perfectly normal monkey-stupidity.

Hmmm. Yeah. Well, maybe for most folks. There is one designer who comes to mind when you put it that way that I could almost see him posting it that I'm not too liable to forgive.

Then, he's an asswipe in just about every way, so if I forgive him that, I'm sure I'll have plenty of disdain left over.

One thing about playing the designer card, though, is that it's something fans do to designers, and that's annoying.

There have been many occasions where I've weighed in on a topic, just as me, GM-to-GM, mano a mano, dork-wasting-time-online to fellow dork-wasting-time-online, and they will come back at me, out of the blue, with "Oh, mister big-deal game writer graces us with his perfect opinion, I see." That kind of thing, when I had said NOTHING about my work or my background, much less played it as a "card."

It happens a lot, and it's a constant temptation to go under an assumed name to avoid it (which I've tried, on occasion, and it had exactly the affect I thought it would ... which is why I'm constantly tempted to do it some more)

S. John, have you experienced the familiarity breeds contempt phenomenon? Wht I mean is when you post regularly, try to treat customers with respect and as equals, you end up becoming "less" in the eyes of customers and thus easier to attack than the average poster. I am not explaining this well. People lose respect for you as a designer; i.e. your games are crap because you will take the time to talk with me/us/a forum.

I have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltWhen I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums.

...My own internal workings go the other way around.  I like buying from people I can actually identify.

So, uh, I believe it, but I don't get it.

Quote from: HinterWeltI have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

That's sorta foreign thinking to me.  If you're going to not buy someone's product, it isn't like it's a U.N. binding resolution or major news.  Unless you're trying to be helpful and mention its for a reason you think they could correct, I don't see why you'd do this.  :confused:

As a gamer, I'll tell you what two big turn-offs are:  a)  the guy whose games have sold 18 copies total and feel that makes him akin to a rock star; and b)  the guy who feels its somehow professional to build himself/his game by tearing into/mocking another designer online.  We have some wonderful designers in this hobby, but somewhat fewer with any sense of professional courtesy.

Quote from: HinterWeltI have had people send me emails about how they would not buy HinterWelt products because of this. When I asked what I had said, they pointed out that HinterWelt/I are amatuerish because we post on various game forums. I appreciate if it is content but not just because. :confused:

Bill

Those people are wacky, but then again it gives you incentive to start building that ivory tower you've always wanted to have. Bah, I'm just making stuff up again, those guys are just wacky. Familiarity breeding contempt usually happens because you've become familiar with a jerk or are a being a jerk yourself.

Sorry, I have add a big Amen to this:

Quote from: Zachary the FirstAs a gamer, I'll tell you what two big turn-offs are: a) the guy whose games have sold 18 copies total and feel that makes him akin to a rock star; and b) the guy who feels its somehow professional to build himself/his game by tearing into/mocking another designer online. We have some wonderful designers in this hobby, but somewhat fewer with any sense of professional courtesy.