[Crossposted from rpg.net]

Hi all,

Did thieves come in in Greyhawk does anyone know? That supplement already seems to be starting the power creep, far earlier than I ever realised it kicked in.

Was there ever a psionics class? The psionics rules in Eldritch Wizardry kick ass and are massively atmospheric, howcome no psionicist class?

How did those psionics rules work in play?

Was there ever a summoning class? Something a bit more sword and sorcery than magic-users? Unofficial would be cool too, if good.

Thanks :-)

Quote from: Balbinus;258054Hi all,

Did thieves come in in Greyhawk does anyone know? That supplement already seems to be starting the power creep, far earlier than I ever realised it kicked in.

Yes. Thieves, paladins, half-elves, and a bunch of new rules, spells, monsters, and magic items were introduced in Greyhawk.

QuoteWas there ever a psionics class? The psionics rules in Eldritch Wizardry kick ass and are massively atmospheric, howcome no psionicist class?

According to Steve Marsh, there were originally supposed to be two separate classes, one a psionicist (designed by Gygax) the other other a mystic/yogi (designed by Marsh), that were reworked and combined (by Gygax) into the psionics rules in Eldritch Wizardry -- the mental combat system coming from the former, most of the disciplines from the latter. I don't know why this decision was made, and neither does Steve, IIRC.

QuoteHow did those psionics rules work in play?

Don't know, never tried them. They seem awfully complex to me.

QuoteWas there ever a summoning class? Something a bit more sword and sorcery than magic-users? Unofficial would be cool too, if good.

Not officially, or that I'm aware of (though my knowledge of unofficial D&D of that era is spotty at best).

The Demonist class from White Dwarf 48 is a great Summoner in the Elric mode.  I think that's 1e AD&D era though.

Hey, I played a Demonist back in the day!

It must have been 1E. I never played OD&D, and Basic doesn't sound right.

The major power creep in Greyhawk (although it's the one power creep I agree with) was the suite of rules that changed hit dice to vary by class, changed weapons to vary in damage, changed monster hit dice to a d8, and made a huge increase in the upper range of damage monsters could cause (previously the limit was about 2d6 from a giant).  Storm giants jumped to 5d6, IIRC, and other monsters got similar boosts.

The reason I like that particular power creep is because it provided more range for creating new monsters and classes - White box, in my view, was actually too restrictive in terms of putting new ideas into the existing range of numbers.

Hi, Foster!

Quote from: Balbinus;258054How did those psionics rules work in play?

They worked, but not very well -- at least not until I tweaked them quite a bit. It took a lot of trial and error. Some of it was probably the fact that the psionics rules in Eldritch Wizardry were not very clear, but a lot of it was simply did not work very well as written.

I would really like to see that demonist class. Is it available in electronic form anywhere?

Dunno, but then the WD issue is sitting in my closet.

Quote from: Mythmere;258355The major power creep in Greyhawk (although it's the one power creep I agree with) was the suite of rules that changed hit dice to vary by class, changed weapons to vary in damage, changed monster hit dice to a d8, and made a huge increase in the upper range of damage monsters could cause (previously the limit was about 2d6 from a giant).  Storm giants jumped to 5d6, IIRC, and other monsters got similar boosts.

The reason I like that particular power creep is because it provided more range for creating new monsters and classes - White box, in my view, was actually too restrictive in terms of putting new ideas into the existing range of numbers.

Hi, Foster!

Hi back at ya

When discussing the power-boost in Supplement I compared to the original set, don't neglect the expanded bonuses for high stats:

In baseline OD&D a fighter with max stats (Str 18, Con 18, Dex 18) has +10% XP bonus, +1 hit point per die, and +1 to hit with missile weapons, and that's it. Including the additions from Supp I the same fighter (assuming max stats, i.e. 18/00 Str) has +4 to hit in melee, +6 damage in melee, +3 hit points per die, +1 to hit with missiles, and a -4 AC bonus, in addition to the +10% XP bonus.

This was presumably done as a balancing mechanism (because, after two years of play, they realized that magic-users, at least those above ~6th level, were way better than fighters) but is IMO unfortunate both because it began the power-inflation game that's never really relented and also because it placed so much more importance on the results of the random die-rolls at step 1 of character generation (i.e. something the player has no control over unless he cheats). The baseline fighter above has only modest bonuses over someone with Str 10, Con 10, Dex 10, and no bonuses at all over someone with Str 15, Con 15, Dex 13, but the Supp I fighter is in a completely different league from both of them -- it would take a +4 weapon and +4 armor (i.e. the second-most most potent magic items in the game) for the average-stat guy to achieve parity with the max-stat guy's natural/inborn Str and Dex bonuses, and he'll never achieve hit point parity -- that gap will just continue to grow and grow.

I prefer success in the game to be more a matter of player skill and effective choices than random chance, and the stat-bonus inflation in Supp I (which was, sadly, carried over to both AD&D and B/X D&D) deals a huge, crippling blow to that notion right out of the gate, from step 1 of char-gen.

My thoughts on abilities and bonus inflation are pretty close to Foster's, I think.  I definitely agree that I prefer a pre-Supplement I level of bonuses, with less emphasis on your stats.  

Foster, do you house-rule anything to address the Fighter vs. Magic User balance at high levels (assuming a game where stat modifiers are more like the LBB than like Supplement I)?