Greetings!

Here is an old classic Country song, from Marty Robbins. "Big Iron".



I was listening to the song earlier while working on my campaign, and it made me think of all the different elements of the American Old West that have influenced the D&D game, especially so in the early years of both development as well as gaming.

The wild frontier, saloons, independent sheriffs, absence of central authority, sparse, wild countryside--not to mention isolated border forts, bands of savage Orcs, ruthless bandits and outlaws. There is also the influence of the "Gold Rush" frontier town economy, saloon girls, charlatans and con-men, snake-oil salesmen, traveling preachers, solid, salt-of-the-earth homesteaders, the wisened old bartender, so many themes and characters transposed over into the game from American Old West influences.

Some pretty neat things, I think.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Older editions of D&D were definitely heavily inspired by westerns. I'd really like to see medieval fantasy western take off as a genre similar to space western

Nope, never saw the very tenuous connection which I guess requires copious amounts of squinting to see. Almost every D&D setting is a retelling of European/Mediterranean history which some ancient empire(s) substituting for Rome and various small kingdoms mimicking various early medieval European counties as they slowly rebuild.

That's my son's favourite song BTW. 

Yeah, the default D&D setting is far far more Old West than Western Medieval. The very earliest stuff - OD&D and Wilderlands - has to me more of a post-apocalypse/Dying Earth vibe. But 1e AD&D and Greyhawk is very very Old West Frontier in tone, and that has been the default theme ever since.

Pretty much agreed.  It also reminds me of the age of pirates.  I suppose any time where there is both civilization and wild, unregulated areas would fit.  D&D's trappings - knights, castles, etc., are certainly medieval, but the culture, social structures, and adventures are things more likely seen in a western novel than medieval history.

Quote from: zend0g on February 04, 2022, 11:35:11 PM
Nope, never saw the very tenuous connection which I guess requires copious amounts of squinting to see. Almost every D&D setting is a retelling of European/Mediterranean history which some ancient empire(s) substituting for Rome and various small kingdoms mimicking various early medieval European counties as they slowly rebuild.

There's very little actual European or Mediterranean history in D&D, outside a quasi-European non-period specific esthetic in the way things like weapons, armor and architecture are portrayed in game art and such, that isn't even necessarily historically accurate or authentic, but more like a fantasy version of what modern people think ancient or "Medieval" Europe looked. But quasi-European esthetic and actual European history or themes are two different things.

D&D art may look kinda sorta European, but the underlying themes themselves, about frontiers towns, with savages at the margins and independent adventurers exploring the land in searching for gold and riches tends to be more similar in terms of how society and towns are structured to Westward Expansion period than ancient Europe fiefdoms and such. Which are actually not that prevalent in D&D, despite its quasi-European trappings, since cultures in actual D&D settings tend to be built around City States rather than actual Feudal Kingdoms--and not even proper Greek style City States, but random mishmash culture City States, which are neither historically European, nor even Western, but more like a modern fantasy take trying to incorporate a bunch of different cultures inspired by disparate time periods (or sometimes 100% made up) into the same world.

Quote from: zend0g on February 04, 2022, 11:35:11 PM
Nope, never saw the very tenuous connection which I guess requires copious amounts of squinting to see. Almost every D&D setting is a retelling of European/Mediterranean history which some ancient empire(s) substituting for Rome and various small kingdoms mimicking various early medieval European counties as they slowly rebuild.

If you need to squint to see the Old Western influences on classic D&D, the only thing that suggests is you need glasses... badly...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 05, 2022, 03:37:25 PM

Quote from: zend0g on February 04, 2022, 11:35:11 PM
Nope, never saw the very tenuous connection which I guess requires copious amounts of squinting to see. Almost every D&D setting is a retelling of European/Mediterranean history which some ancient empire(s) substituting for Rome and various small kingdoms mimicking various early medieval European counties as they slowly rebuild.

If you need to squint to see the Old Western influences on classic D&D, the only thing that suggests is you need glasses... badly...

Meh, it's really not that obvious unless you're familiar enough with the genre or someone spells it out for you, and you known enough to look beyond appearances and fantasy art, and look at the actual themes being presented, vs what ancient Europe was actually like.

I barely watched Westerns as a kid and never thought about this, so the first time I saw someone mention D&D had Western influences, I was like "Whaaaat?" It wasn't till I saw people break the themes down and say what they meant that it downed on me that maybe D&D really did have influences from Westerns as a genre. And even then, there's still actual European themes mixed in classic D&Dish stuff (rescue the Princess, etc.), it's just that it's more Western than people realize.

I'm heavily considering creating a campaign setting for AD&D or perhaps OSE Advanced depending on my mood and the books' availability to me that delves into a frontier setting with a lot of Western thematics. I'm trying to decide if I want to include more than an arrow on the map to point to "Back East". I suppose a few brief words on what it's like there is really all I need.

But instead of being the current seat of genteel civilization, my "Back East" is in ruin and the frontier is the only escape route from cataclysm.

Quote from: zend0g on February 04, 2022, 11:35:11 PM
Nope, never saw the very tenuous connection which I guess requires copious amounts of squinting to see. Almost every D&D setting is a retelling of European/Mediterranean history which some ancient empire(s) substituting for Rome and various small kingdoms mimicking various early medieval European counties as they slowly rebuild.

You don't have to squint that much to see it, do you?

The connection isn't tenuous at all.  The idea of adventurers roaming the streets of frontier towns with swords strapped to their hips and deadly spells at the ready owes more to the myth of the Wild West than anything you're going to find in European history.  And while there is considerably less dungeon crawling in Western fiction than in D&D modules, the Western magazines that were on the newsstands when Gygax, Arneson, and the others who gave shape to the game were younger were full of features on lost mines and hidden Indian gold.

The baseline setting may have a pseudo-medieval gloss, but it's not really historical.  It's cobbled together from bits and pieces of pulp fantasy stories, old monster movies, comic books, and other mid-20th century popular culture sources.

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 05, 2022, 05:16:05 PM
And even then, there's still actual European themes mixed in classic D&Dish stuff (rescue the Princess, etc.), it's just that it's more Western than people realize.

That's actually fairy tales in general, not "European themes." That sort of stuff is found in agricultural cultures throughout the Old World, altho D&D admittedly draws primarily from post-Christianization of Europe sources. But those concepts aren't limited to Europe.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 06, 2022, 05:28:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 05, 2022, 05:16:05 PM
And even then, there's still actual European themes mixed in classic D&Dish stuff (rescue the Princess, etc.), it's just that it's more Western than people realize.

That's actually fairy tales in general, not "European themes." That sort of stuff is found in agricultural cultures throughout the Old World, altho D&D admittedly draws primarily from post-Christianization of Europe sources. But those concepts aren't limited to Europe.

You got me! That was the first thing that came to my mind, and I didn't feel like racking my brain or scouring the internet for verifiably historical European ideas. So I just rolled with it... 

Quote from: Dropbear on February 05, 2022, 05:44:11 PM
I'm heavily considering creating a campaign setting for AD&D or perhaps OSE Advanced depending on my mood and the books' availability to me that delves into a frontier setting with a lot of Western thematics. I'm trying to decide if I want to include more than an arrow on the map to point to "Back East". I suppose a few brief words on what it's like there is really all I need.

But instead of being the current seat of genteel civilization, my "Back East" is in ruin and the frontier is the only escape route from cataclysm.

Right, a straightforward "Back East is far away and irrelevant" is part of the standard West Marches pitch, and "[Down South] is fallen to ruin and evil magic and you're one of the last refugees over the mountains" is the start for Symbaroum, IIRC.

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 07, 2022, 11:51:49 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on February 05, 2022, 05:44:11 PM
I'm heavily considering creating a campaign setting for AD&D or perhaps OSE Advanced depending on my mood and the books' availability to me that delves into a frontier setting with a lot of Western thematics. I'm trying to decide if I want to include more than an arrow on the map to point to "Back East". I suppose a few brief words on what it's like there is really all I need.

But instead of being the current seat of genteel civilization, my "Back East" is in ruin and the frontier is the only escape route from cataclysm.

Right, a straightforward "Back East is far away and irrelevant" is part of the standard West Marches pitch, and "[Down South] is fallen to ruin and evil magic and you're one of the last refugees over the mountains" is the start for Symbaroum, IIRC.

Actually, I'm steeping these frontier lands in the ruin of Elven and Dwarven societies. The Humans are the recent arrivals from their cataclysm. The ruin and evil are the remnants of those Elven and Dwarven societies within this frontier land, devolved into savagery long before the Human refugee's civilization even rose and fell.

One of the main influences on early D&D was Conan and stories like Beyond the Black River and Wolves Beyond the Border are basically western stories set in a fantasy world.  I'd also wondered which western fiction authors wrote books that could be mined for D&D ideas.  For something more recent, watch the western horror movie Bone Tomahawk.  Just switch the cannibal Indians for orcs and you have a D&D adventure.