I dislike THAC0, but it doesn't even need subtraction. Roll a d20, add AC, compare to THAC0 (as you mentioned, Target20 does something similar and I rpefer that - so I guess we partly agree).

Not great, but defensible IMO - and fits the saving throw scheme, very intuitive for people used to it.

You could say THAC0 can be superior to target 20 because requires just one step:

T20: 1d20+level(+modifiers)+AC
THAC0: 1d20+AC, just compare to the number in your sheet.

I'm starting up a game and made the decision to drop 5E.  Not for all the wotc junk but because of the mechanics.  So far it's 2 people who are veterans of gaming but 2 total noobs.  The complexity of the 3 systems I looked at didn't upset anyone and it took an explanation of how it works and it's not a problem.  The 5E "adv/disadv" system is just too basic and as long time dnd people from the box game days it didn't make sense with things like blindness/total darkness.  I think younger people can handle it if exposed to it and open to the system.  I do think math and just "thinking about hard things" were a part of education and life in general and today's generation hasn't done that as much, but some do (look at programming).  But hey I remember when learning to use a slide rule was part of math class and the basic function calculators were forbidden in math classes.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 17, 2023, 01:32:08 PM
Well, one problem with the THACO argument is that on most old school character sheets you're not even doing a calculation.  You literally write the value needed to hit an AC.  So there's actually no math involved in the actual game.

Your argument is basically that THAC0 not is not bad because old school character sheets made you pre-calculate and write in advance a complete break down of every AC in the game* and what you needed to hit it, so that in actual play you don't have to make any calculations because presumably you already went through the trouble before play.

My argument is that Roll+Mod is better because I don't need to pre calculate every single AC in the game in advance to know which one I hit when I roll. I just need to roll a d20+Mod and the result automatically tells me which AC I hit.

Furthermore. You can pre-calculate which AC you hit with every roll result in advance with Roll+Mod as well. That's not a unique feature of THAC0 and descending AC. It's just bandaid solution to try to sidestep the fact that THAC0 is convoluted AF, but you could do that with practically any other system. The difference is, with Roll+Mod, you don't have to. But with THAC0 and descending AC you need to devote an entire section on the character sheet and pre-calculate a bunch of results to make believe that THAC0 ain't convoluted.

*which was clunky AF, cuz you need space for the entire 10 to -10 AC range. And doesn't take into account different modifiers for different weapons, which skews numbers and makes you add or substract numbers regardless.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 17, 2023, 10:20:34 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 17, 2023, 01:32:08 PM
Well, one problem with the THACO argument is that on most old school character sheets you're not even doing a calculation.  You literally write the value needed to hit an AC.  So there's actually no math involved in the actual game.

Your argument is basically that THAC0 not is not bad because old school character sheets made you pre-calculate and write in advance a complete break down of every AC in the game* and what you needed to hit it, so that in actual play you don't have to make any calculations because presumably you already went through the trouble before play.

My argument is that Roll+Mod is better because I don't need to pre calculate every single AC in the game in advance to know which one I hit when I roll. I just need to roll a d20+Mod and the result automatically tells me which AC I hit.

Furthermore. You can pre-calculate which AC you hit with every roll result in advance with Roll+Mod as well. That's not a unique feature of THAC0 and descending AC. It's just bandaid solution to try to sidestep the fact that THAC0 is convoluted AF, but you could do that with practically any other system. The difference is, with Roll+Mod, you don't have to. But with THAC0 and descending AC you need to devote an entire section on the character sheet and pre-calculate a bunch of results to make believe that THAC0 ain't convoluted.

*which was clunky AF, cuz you need space for the entire 10 to -10 AC range. And doesn't take into account different modifiers for different weapons, which skews numbers and makes you add or substract numbers regardless.

First off, no one's pre-calculating anything.  They're literally looking at a chart in the book.  Second, I'm just noting this is on the character sheet itself and would therefore involve no calculation if someone was not inclined to do that.  And I'm not sure how dense someone must be to think that THACO is "convoluted."  It's literally just basic subtraction.  I need to hit an AC of 5, my THACO is 10.  Therefore I need to roll a 5.  How is that convoluted?

Quote from: Persimmon on April 17, 2023, 11:19:17 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 17, 2023, 10:20:34 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 17, 2023, 01:32:08 PM
Well, one problem with the THACO argument is that on most old school character sheets you're not even doing a calculation.  You literally write the value needed to hit an AC.  So there's actually no math involved in the actual game.

Your argument is basically that THAC0 not is not bad because old school character sheets made you pre-calculate and write in advance a complete break down of every AC in the game* and what you needed to hit it, so that in actual play you don't have to make any calculations because presumably you already went through the trouble before play.

My argument is that Roll+Mod is better because I don't need to pre calculate every single AC in the game in advance to know which one I hit when I roll. I just need to roll a d20+Mod and the result automatically tells me which AC I hit.

Furthermore. You can pre-calculate which AC you hit with every roll result in advance with Roll+Mod as well. That's not a unique feature of THAC0 and descending AC. It's just bandaid solution to try to sidestep the fact that THAC0 is convoluted AF, but you could do that with practically any other system. The difference is, with Roll+Mod, you don't have to. But with THAC0 and descending AC you need to devote an entire section on the character sheet and pre-calculate a bunch of results to make believe that THAC0 ain't convoluted.

*which was clunky AF, cuz you need space for the entire 10 to -10 AC range. And doesn't take into account different modifiers for different weapons, which skews numbers and makes you add or substract numbers regardless.

First off, no one's pre-calculating anything.  They're literally looking at a chart in the book.  Second, I'm just noting this is on the character sheet itself and would therefore involve no calculation if someone was not inclined to do that.  And I'm not sure how dense someone must be to think that THACO is "convoluted."  It's literally just basic subtraction.  I need to hit an AC of 5, my THACO is 10.  Therefore I need to roll a 5.  How is that convoluted?

Old character sheets with a Target AC and THAC0 track have a space to note down what you need to roll to hit each individual AC, which would require you to calculate it based on your actual THAC0. Even if the book already had a chart with these values pre-calculated (I don't recall that, but I mostly played 2e, which I think didn't have it) it still doesn't change the fact that I have to rely on extra charts to help streamline this mess.

In straight d20+Mod if I need to hit AC 15 I don't need to do any calculation. The AC already tells me what I need to roll to get there (15 in this case). I just roll a d20, add any relevant modifiers (which I need to do even in the old THAC0 system with ability modifiers, magic bonuses, etc; d20 System just makes your attack value a modifier as well), and that automatically tells me what AC I hit—no looking up at some chart BS or subtracting extra stuff to figure out what the final value is. The roll's total result IS the AC you hit.

If it's equal or higher you hit it. If it's not you missed. The end.

The convoluted part is keeping track of a "To Hit" number that lists an AC value that nobody has (AC 0) like it's some sort of universal benchmark when it isn't. Then having to calculate which AC you actually hit, based on your roll plus modifiers vs your THAC0 vs your opponent's actual AC (which almost invariably is NOT going to be 0, so why the fuck am I tracking what I need to hit that specific number?).

Versus just rolling a d20, adding your modifiers*, and automatically knowing what AC you actually hit.

*which again, both systems have to do to some extent or another regardless, so THAC0 doesn't even eliminate the need to do this, it just makes you track a number that's almost never gonna come up

The THAC0 argument is interesting, mostly because it's a way to avoid using the chart but isn't as easily to use as a simpler ascending AC roll. Further, it eliminates the advantages of the chart entirely. The multiple natural 20s and allowing for some interesting effects at higher level are pretty much gone. So while I like descending AC, if you're going to go with THAC0 I see no reason why to use it over ascending since you dump one of the major reasons to use descending.

As a young-ish person (mid twenties, you can make your own ruling there) I started with 3.5 edition in 2013 or 2014, and I was ambivalent to the complexity of that system and the range of options presented to players in terms of customization. I only played 4E once or twice and probably didn't even update the system at all from 3.5 apart from those healing charges or whatever.

In any case, I tried 5E and once again, the amount of complexity in terms of character arrangement simply bored me. I don't care about feats, customization and all of that excessive sort of stuff. I graduated to OSR (Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry) and I just do 3d6 down the line and kill one, and that's your character. No interest in point buy, no interest in convoluted character backstories, etc. Though personality and life experiences are very much encouraged.

With that being said, my friends and I are much more interested in inter-party roleplay and expression than dice rolls. We keep those to a minimum. Want to haggle with a shopkeeper or charm a guard into letting you through the gates? You, yourself, need to be charismatic and present good reasons for why the item should cost less or why you should be let in. No need to roll a few arbitrary dice rolls for something and slow down the whole process, which for us is the talking and roleplaying.
Dice get rolled during combat or during dungeon generation for loot tables and relevant enemy varieties. We don't do THAC0, because it's inconsistent, as many people have pointed out so far.

So essentially, as a young person, I don't care for lots of rules and dice rolls because it slows down the roleplaying and many things can be accomplished through character actions and roleplaying. The DM should be doing most of the dice rolling anyway.

Quote from: Lidless_Eye on April 18, 2023, 05:55:06 AM
As a young-ish person (mid twenties, you can make your own ruling there) I started with 3.5 edition in 2013 or 2014, and I was ambivalent to the complexity of that system and the range of options presented to players in terms of customization. I only played 4E once or twice and probably didn't even update the system at all from 3.5 apart from those healing charges or whatever.

In any case, I tried 5E and once again, the amount of complexity in terms of character arrangement simply bored me. I don't care about feats, customization and all of that excessive sort of stuff. I graduated to OSR (Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry) and I just do 3d6 down the line and kill one, and that's your character. No interest in point buy, no interest in convoluted character backstories, etc. Though personality and life experiences are very much encouraged.

With that being said, my friends and I are much more interested in inter-party roleplay and expression than dice rolls. We keep those to a minimum. Want to haggle with a shopkeeper or charm a guard into letting you through the gates? You, yourself, need to be charismatic and present good reasons for why the item should cost less or why you should be let in. No need to roll a few arbitrary dice rolls for something and slow down the whole process, which for us is the talking and roleplaying.
Dice get rolled during combat or during dungeon generation for loot tables and relevant enemy varieties. We don't do THAC0, because it's inconsistent, as many people have pointed out so far.

So essentially, as a young person, I don't care for lots of rules and dice rolls because it slows down the roleplaying and many things can be accomplished through character actions and roleplaying. The DM should be doing most of the dice rolling anyway.

Greetings!

Welcome, Lidless Eye! Also, I commend your attitude and efforts with gaming in the OSR!

Outstanding! Keep the faith!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I started listening to a podcast of a group playing through "The Keep on the Borderlands", using actual BECMI rules. Apparently, they had, in a prior meeting, gotten into an argument over THAC0, over whether a player informs the DM of his actual roll ("I rolled a sixteen") or the AC he hits based on the chart ("I hit AC 3").

In either case, it is the DM who must use THAC0, not the players, because the AC of the monster being attacked shouldn't be known to the players, right?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJDd-rw7KvPA_uT-cXT-IBrIfxX27ZvO7

Quote from: cavalier973 on April 18, 2023, 08:29:37 AM
In either case, it is the DM who must use THAC0, not the players, because the AC of the monster being attacked shouldn't be known to the players, right?

The DM decides if an attack hits, not the players. People who disagree with this assertion need to go play another game. That said, I've played it multiple ways over the years...hidden everything and players roll a die, I do all the modifiers (full blown AD&D with weapon type, etc...pain in the ass), roll the die and tell me the value with modifiers, tell the players the AC of the monster and just let me know if they hit. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but SOME people (no names here) just need to be left in the dark or they will game the ever living fuck out of the system to the point where it's not any fun. One of those situations where the PCs meet some orcs or whatever, they roll and say they hit AC 3 say, I tell them it misses, and one of THOSE PEOPLE will start a fucking argument. "Orcs don't have better than AC 3! Page 97 of the Monster Manual clearly states this!" Yeah, go play a video game.

The older I get the less I care, though, so I like to run Castles & Crusades mostly because it's simple ascending, tell the players the AC of the monsters. and they tell me if they hit. Speeds up play quite a bit for combats. I fixed the problem with THOSE PEOPLE by just not playing with them anymore. Best decision I ever made.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 17, 2023, 03:49:01 PM
I dislike THAC0, but it doesn't even need subtraction. Roll a d20, add AC, compare to THAC0 (as you mentioned, Target20 does something similar and I rpefer that - so I guess we partly agree).

and

Quote
T20: 1d20+level(+modifiers)+AC
THAC0: 1d20+AC, just compare to the number in your sheet.

So, I never did rolls back then as 1d20+AC and compare to THAC0, back when I ran THAC0, and the reason is that the modifiers became an endless stream of backwards mods if you are comparing to a target THAC0.  You can't compare to the number on your sheet, because it doesn't include things that are happening right now.  So you have either:

T20: 1d20+(effective fighter level)+(modifiers)+AC, then compare to 20
or
THAC0: 1d20+(modifiers)+AC, then compare to THAC0

I think T20 wins that for sure.  And in my example I definitely picked negative numbers to pick on THAC0, because it breaks hard as armor class and level increase, because you end up with negative AC (which isn't great but it's fine whatever) and negative THAC0 (which is awful, and makes you either subtract from a negative or compare to a negative).

One more thing:  "modifiers" come from a few sources in a typical game.
Lets assume you have a +2 to hit from strength, and a +1 longsword, and you are specialized so you have a +1 to hit, and you are charging so you have a +2, and you can't see the target so you have a -4, and you are a level 5 fighter equivalent.

An ascending AC, or target 20, your sheet somewhere contains "Magic Sword: +9", the summation of your effective fighter level (+5), your strength bonus to hit in melee (+2), the magical bonus of your sword (+1), and the fact that you are specialized in swords of its class (+1).
In THACW0RLD, you instead have "Magic Sword: 7", because you have a THAC0 of 16 somewhere else, and you've subtracted 9 from it.

In Ascending AC or target 20, you can easily add your temporary modifiers to the roll, or to the modifier.  With THAC0, you either add it to the roll or subtract it from the THAC0.  That makes them feel very different and be lame.

QuoteFirst off, no one's pre-calculating anything.  They're literally looking at a chart in the book.

That way is much older than THAC0, and the fact that THAC0 is compatible with that is probably why it was even considered at all.

QuoteI need to hit an AC of 5, my THACO is 10.  Therefore I need to roll a 5.  How is that convoluted?

I selected cases that were convoluted for THAC0 and fine for T20 and Ascending AC.  You selected a case that is not convoluted for any of them.  But there is no meaningful case where T20 and Ascending AC suck, and THAC0 rules.  THAC0 is in some cases not convoluted, sure.  But hitting AC 15 with a +10 to hit is just as obviously 5.  Negative values happen, and they are annoying.