Quote from: vomitbrown;281209btw, what's a grognard? Where does the term come from? What does one have to do to be a "grognard"? I've seen that term in a shitload of blogs.

It's a guy who only likes older editions of D&D.  The steriotype is he's been "playing D&D since 75", is old, fat, bearded, and "WotC ruined D&D, you can pry my AD&D DM's Guide from my cold dead hand".

Quote from: boulet;281214It's like the second item of a Google search... Wow I feel tired after searching sooo hard

Your biting sarcasm reaches out from the computer screen to choke me.

Quote from: wiseman207;281220It's a guy who only likes older editions of D&D.  The steriotype is he's been "playing D&D since 75", is old, fat, bearded, and "WotC ruined D&D, you can pry my AD&D DM's Guide from my cold dead hand".

Ok, I've met many old, fat, bearded, "WotC" hating dudes in my day. Most of them are the nicest fucking people ever; but you have to admit that the stereotype is quite true.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;281179People design the "retro-clones" so that they can legally publish adventure modules for the old games they know and love. If they enjoy it, how can it be pointless and stupid?

How many commercial adventures have been published using retro-clone rules sets? And how many folks outside the old-school design clique have bought them?

I play old-school D&D, but I have my doubts about the market for these adventures. You can already get loads of old-school adventures for free from sites like Dragonsfoot. Why should I fork out a few dollars for a PDF when I'm already extremely skeptical about the quality of these adventures? Even the old-school stuff published by Goodman Games - a professional commercial endeavour - is pretty thin gruel.

And like most long-time DMs, I have no trouble converting stats on the fly. I have a bunch of Necromancer Games adventures for 3/3.5E that I've used for older editions of D&D, and I know a big chunk of NG's fanbase did the same.

So are there really a lot of gamers out there who:

• Still play old-school D&D.


• Hang out on RPG web forums.


• Are looking for published adventures.


• Need old-school stat blocks.


• Are willing to take a chance on unknown authors publishing PDFs over the net


• Aren't getting the stuff they need already from Castles and Crusades or Goodman Games

My sense is that describes about 40 guys, half of whom are publishing or helping work on retro-clones.

Don't get me wrong. Creating and sharing creative content is a cool thing. It's helping keep old-school D&D alive (or slowing the rate of its decline). So if people are having fun writing and talking about variations of old-school D&D, all the power to them. But the retro-clone movement is commercially marginal, bears a lot of resemblance to the incestuous Indie RPG movement, and will probably have no impact outside the community of web forums.

Well, as far as OSRIC 2.0 is concerned, it's faithful to Gary's work, but about 3x better-organized.

I'm running a once-a-month AD&D game, and I find OSRIC very useful.  I still mostly lug around my original AD&D1e books, but I'll happy bring OSRIC along, too, as soon as it hits LuLu.

-O

Quote from: Haffrung;281228How many commercial adventures have been published using retro-clone rules sets? And how many folks outside the old-school design clique have bought them?

Quite a few, actually.

I know, I was surprised, too.

QuoteSo are there really a lot of gamers out there who:

• Still play old-school D&D.


• Hang out on RPG web forums.


• Are looking for published adventures.


• Need old-school stat blocks.


• Are willing to take a chance on unknown authors publishing PDFs over the net

My sense is that describes about 40 guys, half of whom are publishing or helping work on retro-clones.

Don't get me wrong. Creating and sharing creative content is a cool thing. It's helping keep old-school D&D alive (or slowing the rate of its decline). So if people are having fun writing and talking about variations of old-school D&D, all the power to them. But the retro-clone movement is commercially marginal, bears a lot of resemblance to the incestuous Indie RPG movement, and will probably have no impact outside the community of web forums.

Well, I'm one of the folks who benefits from retro-clone games.  AD&D1e isn't my primary game - I run 4e, SWSE, and WFRP2, as well - but it actually does help open up exposure to classic gaming systems.

-O

Quote from: obryn;281234it actually does help open up exposure to classic gaming systems.
 
-O

Especially for those players who started with 3rd edition.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281177If you want something classic, why the fuck would you go with this? The originals are all still out there ( you can get the RC pdf for $5), and there's NOTHING in any of these "clones" that make them more worthwhile than the original.

1) Format. You can't get it in book form. Sure you can put it up on lulu as a private download but that a technical hurdle that many won't make.

2) Marketing. The PDF only route can only go so far. Plus you can't use Dungeons & Dragons so you are forced to come up with your own branding.

3) Rules. The pre AD&D version or Versions of D&D was released piecemeal. The older rules lacked in teaching somebody to play. Many retro-clones distill the original rules into a consistent vision that is better organized.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281193See, if that was their motive, then why add bullshit "extra rules" or change fundamental rules in certain areas, why not just be a copyright-free reprint?

Because prior to Moldavy, and Gygax's AD&D, what was D&D? Even afterward rule systems like AD&D's initiative system were so poorly written that in reality everybody winged it. You got 1974 D&D, D&D + Supplements, Holmes D&D, Moldavy D&D, AD&D, AD&D + Unearthed, AD&D + Survival Guides, Mentzer D&D. D&D RC.

None of them are exactly the same but all related. The retro clones just mirror the existing situation.

The three to watch are

Labyrinth Lord / Mutant Future. The author is the most vigorous about pushing forward into NEW material and getting the products into the stores. His products are invariably good.

OSRIC 1.0 was just a marketing tool. A organized concise summary of everything you could legally use out of AD&D because of the OGL.

OSRIC 2.0 is a regular rulebook, this was propelled forward by the moderate success of Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, etc. So it was decided to make 2.0 a complete RPG where referees and players can play AD&D without reference to anything else.

Swords & Wizardry duplicate the work of OSRIC/Labyrinth Lord but for the 1974 Rule + Supplements. It is presented in two formats one using the supplements and one based solely on the original 1974 rules. Understand that the D&D the vast majority of us played originated in the Greyhawk Supplement NOT the initial 1974 release.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281177Ok, there's my ranting for the day. Discuss.

Fairly weak, really.  I mean, the so-called 'bile' is entirely forced, there is no real controversy here to get worked up over, hence, the entire essay is just an affectation.

It's got a good beat, but I can't dance to it.

Ok, I'm a total Old-School n00b who hadn't even thought about the oD&D before reading about it in this forum. It is my understanding that the charm Old School stuff has is it's "winging it" nature. That the game was more imaginative than tactical. That's really, really cool.
But, I was wondering how the Old School games handle adventuring in non-dungeon environments. I've read a good amount of blogs that chronicle various oD&D games. They all seem to follow a very similar megadungeon formula.
I'm not shitting on the mega-dungeon idea; quite the contrary, I would love to get involved in one of these old school campaign.
I'm just curious as to how good can an old school system handle investigation scenarios or horror scenarios.

Quote from: vomitbrown;281224Your biting sarcasm reaches out from the computer screen to choke me.

I'm stealing this line....

Quote from: RPGPundit;281177If you want something classic, why the fuck would you go with this? The originals are all still out there ( you can get the RC pdf for $5), and there's NOTHING in any of these "clones" that make them more worthwhile than the original.

FREE is a powerful word.   If your primary goal is to reach the largest possible audience, $0.00 beats $5.00 any day of the week.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;281179People design the "retro-clones" so that they can legally publish adventure modules for the old games they know and love.

Based on my conversations with retro-clone people, THIS is a major motivator.  Its all about using the OGL to publish stuff for B/X or AD&D without any fear of reprisal.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281193See, if that was their motive, then why add bullshit "extra rules" or change fundamental rules in certain areas, why not just be a copyright-free reprint?

Again, based on my conversations with retro-clone people, the changes were done for legal reasons to ensure that they were not stepping on any copyright toes.  

Maybe they needed to do this and maybe not, but I know for sure that I have not seen any printed copies of Kalamar 4e in my game store.

Quote from: vomitbrown;281204Hey, do you "old-timers" have a bone to pick with Troll Lords Castles and Crusades? I've heard that it has very straightforward rules and a whole lot of the old school feeling.

C&C is good stuff.   It's AD&D 2.5 and certainly fun, but it has its own imperfections and how much a grognard enjoys C&C depends on how much their ideas of "fixing AD&D" mesh with Troll Lord's viewpoint.  

If I had a group that really wanted to play AD&D, I would run C&C for them.  

Quote from: vomitbrown;281261It is my understanding that the charm Old School stuff has is it's "winging it" nature. That the game was more imaginative than tactical. That's really, really cool.

I highly suggest reading Matt Finch's A Quick Primer to Old School Gaming (its free)
http://www.lulu.com/content/3019374

Quote from: vomitbrown;281261But, I was wondering how the Old School games handle adventuring in non-dungeon environments.

Everything is a dungeon.  Sometimes the walls are invisible.

Quote from: Spinachcat;281273FREE is a powerful word. If your primary goal is to reach the largest possible audience, $0.00 beats $5.00 any day of the week.

Oddly enough this isn't always true.  People often place value on something based on what it cost them.  When people download free stuff, they're generally less likely to actually read it - but far more download it so it kind of evens out.
 

Quote from: Spinachcat;281273I highly suggest reading Matt Finch's A Quick Primer to Old School Gaming (its free)
http://www.lulu.com/content/3019374

I like old school gaming but dislike the primer.  It's full of false dichotomies and confuses play style with rules style.  Most of both the old school and modern behaviors are found in both kinds of groups.  The primer amounts to propaganda implying "Boy, old schoolers you're so great for playing the Right Way."

Quote from: Haffrung;281228How many commercial adventures have been published using retro-clone rules sets?

Looking here and adding a few things I've read about here and there, I'd say maybe about a dozen. That's just for-money adventure modules, not including other material like Carcosa or the Fight On! fanzine which is becoming pretty major.

How many commercial adventures did WotC publish for D&D 4E? I don't know for sure, but an Amazon.com list suggests... seven?

Its all good to me as its a statement to those damn "new book tappers" with their "Oooh, I gotta new book! Look at all the skills!" that immediately says sternly and without emotion: "Ha. Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha.". Thats why...

Just kidding!

Seriously, the adventure producing angle was/is what its about. Recreating a viable niche for energy that doesn't feel like its being blown off for free. We've had over a decade of "free" lets see what happens when it cranks up a notch.
Give it a few years.